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Illyanna
Assistant
Posts: 116
(1/29/03 2:18 pm)
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Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Main thread is here:
vnboards.ign.com/message....&replies=3
Looking for overlooked concerns and potential solutions. Also looking for stories of recent siege use.
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Rizena Halcyon
Junior
Posts: 173
(1/29/03 3:13 pm)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Making catapult ammo stackable and maybe even weigh less is a great idea. I just won't use catapults unless I'm at a merchant fort because the ammo ways too much.
Door repair. The best thing to buy me time during a keep seige is door repair. In the last few keep seiges I've been in, door repair was next to nothing because I was getting nuked so badly. I've all but given up on that. Can we extend the range of door repair to something greater than PBAE/pathing through the door range, but less than GTAE range?
Other than that, could you talk to someone about the height of the Hibernian keep walls? 
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 Spyke 
Patron Deity of Tradeskills
Posts: 172
(1/29/03 6:41 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Catapult and Ballista ammo is now stackable up to 20 on our internal server for testing. Might get into 1.60, might not.
Also we're going to be adding the ability to craft the same ammo via Siegecraft... around skill 10, or so... Trying to come in at around 75% of the cost of buying them.
.ungawa
-Spyke
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Gwerral Darkmorn
Apprentice
Posts: 51
(1/29/03 6:44 pm)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Quote:
Also we're going to be adding the ability to craft the same ammo via Siegecraft... around skill 10, or so... Trying to come in at around 75% of the cost of buying them.
THANK YOU, SPYKE!!!! 
Gwerral Darkmorn
Briton Master Mercenary and Legendary Smith
<Twilight Society>
Percival |
Guyemelf
Assistant
Posts: 125
(1/29/03 6:56 pm)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Why not put siege ammo into Alchemy and/or Spellcraft? It sort of makes sense (Alchemists making greek fire, for example), and would get those crafts involved in the siege process.
I was running one of 3 trebuchets in a keep defense last night, and I was very impressed with the new no-dropoff damage radius. I hadn't built one in months - they are much improved now.
I'll look into this further, but I'm so far unable to make a /load macro work correctly. /aim, /arm, and /fire work fine for me, but when I highlight the ammo I want to load and use a load macro, nothing happens. I am forced to use the load button on the siege interface. Possible bug?
I do think a 30-second arm time on trebs is excessive. GTAE timers were lowered to only 6 seconds, yet catapults remain at 30? I don't feel a 10- or 15-sec arm time would be overpowering (and remember there's 3 additional seconds to load the stone, and 3 more if you are re-aiming).
Finally, if we are going to see catapults and ballistae used anywhere but in defense of supply keeps, I think they should be infinitely repairable. It's fine that they degrade and must be repaired every few minutes, but they also reach a point at which repair is no longer possible (out of durability?). If someone is going to go to the effort of getting a trebuchet built somewhere, AND repair it constantly, AND feed it with ammo that had to be transported as well, they should be able to keep it running indefinitely. As it stands, I don't think a siege engine can be kept in operation more than 30 minutes before it becomes unrepairable and poofs.
-Guyemelf Oreaides
Champion, Weaponsmith
[Glas Garda]
"For all your ubar sludehammer needs" |
Lucinia
Assistant
Posts: 120
(1/30/03 9:19 am)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Thx Spyke
Glad to see that siege has been getting looked at. We used trebs a few times and they are sooo much better now.
Although I agree that the 30 sec timer is a bit high... maybe 20 or 15 sec would be better.
Legendary Grandmaster Fletcher
Hibernia Bedevere
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Rizena Halcyon
Junior
Posts: 174
(1/30/03 10:25 am)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
I would definitely agree on adding some a lot more durabilty to seige engines. It's really a crap shoot as to when to build these things. I usually wait until they're on the doors and have committed to attacking the keep, but they've been chased off more than once or they just decide to leave. Then, you're out a pult when they come back 54 minutes later with reinforcements.
That's just the great thing about rams, those doors don't ever move 
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kameron17 
Senior
Posts: 408
(1/30/03 11:03 am)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
riz:
Quote:
Door repair. The best thing to buy me time during a keep seige is door repair. In the last few keep seiges I've been in, door repair was next to nothing because I was getting nuked so badly. I've all but given up on that. Can we extend the range of door repair to something greater than PBAE/pathing through the door range, but less than GTAE range?
this was taken out due to the fact that you could stand inside the keep against the inside door and repair the outer door, and you could also sit in teh gatehouse and repair the doors below (at one point in the last couple weeks, i suspect this may have creeped back in but can't proved it). these were the reasons that the radius was lowered in the first place.
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WOOT!
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Shagsbeard
Junior
Posts: 213
(1/30/03 11:15 am)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Give us aditional teirs of siegecraft. A level 10 door shouldn't be even scratched by a teir 4 ram. A level 50 player should be able to shrug off the effects of a teir 4 cat. To make this change you would have to redo the recipes, and reconsider the costs. The current recipes would bankrupt a guild to make a teir 10 ram. I see relic raids (really a thing of the past, but that's another issue) requiring about 9 teir 10 rams. This should set back the force about 5-10plat. The current ironwood rams would be ok for taking down poorly upgraded keeps, but in no way should be strong enough to take down an upgraded keep or a relic door.
Give skill in siegecraft some meaning. Make the different teirs combineable only by those of sufficient siegecraft and use the crafting of ammo as a method of raising skill. Put ammo under siege craft. Allow SC/Alchies to enchant/imbue ammo and ram parts. This could be done in the field or at the table.
Finally... give two caster classes from each realm a spec line version of siege bolt (that works). Make it base line in Theurgists. Make the RA version of it really knock a door for a loop. Make all other spells and melee all but ineffective against a door.
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Spyke
Patron Deity of Tradeskills
Posts: 173
(1/30/03 11:46 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Changes on the internal server today so far as well.
I've halved the weight of the non-raw wood components for ballistae and catapults. This puts them more in line with the non-raw wood weight of the rams.
We're not going to be adding anything new functionality wise to the seige engines right now. We're just working on tweaking what we've had (like adding in /groundassist, etc)...
So looking at things like reload times for ballistae fall into that catagory. Adding new ammo types, or the ability for SC/AL'ers to make new ammo types won't be something we do at this time... but we will look into it in the future.
Speaking of /groundassist, I've been getting good reports one people being able to use that via "spotters" (normally stealthers) to help target with their catapults, both offensively, and defensively.
Defensively being that there's a catapult, or two, built intside the keep, with a stealther up on the battlements as a spotter.
What are your comments on it?
Also, don't let the current tiers of siege engines fool you based on their material type. A type 3 siege engine is "level 50". Types 1 and 2 are 30 and 40 equiv. So a level 50 won't be able to just shrug off the damage from a type 3 if everything's set up properly.
.ungawa
-Spyke
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Leladia
Journeyman
Posts: 316
(1/30/03 12:02 pm)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Since it sounds like siege ammo will be craftable, let alchemists put their full range of procs on them. (with a 100%chance to proc) Let them put them on rams with their standard proc rates.
Let spellcrafters imbue the siege weapons themselves... Add qui to reduce loading/firing delays, con to slow decay and add hp, str to make them hurl farther or ram harder.
New type of ammo that sticks around for a few minutes where it lands and has a chance to cause disease if you get too close. (or let the Alchs make this one, maybe, but it sure would be fun to fling dead mob corpses, instead ) Has as much (or maybe 50%?) chance to disease people near the catapult as it does at the target. (doh!)
-Leladia 50 Theurgist/Galahad
Leladia's Detonating Theurgist Spellcraft Boutique - For all your spellcrafting and entertainment needs!
Ginvan's Alchemy Co. - Turning diamond seals into gold for over 100 years. |
Shagsbeard
Junior
Posts: 215
(1/30/03 12:10 pm)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
I agree that currently a 50 can't shrug off the teir 4 treb... I just disagree that it should be this way. In my opinion, siege engines should follow the same progression as regular ones. This would add a dynamic to siege. You could use cheaper, low level equipment for assaulting low level forts. You could "optimize" your strategies.
In my version a level 50 should be troubled by a teir 7 or 8 treb (level 35 and 40) and greatly affected by a teir 9 or 10.
"RETREAT!!!!! THEY HAVE A DYERWOOD CATAPULT!" would be great to hear on a raid. Taking a fort defended by one of these costly babies would take strategy and good execution of it.
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Guyemelf
Assistant
Posts: 126
(1/30/03 12:17 pm)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Spyke, I'm unclear from your post if /groundassist i supposed to be working on live servers. In my experience, it is not.
In the siege I mentioned, we attempted to use a spotter, or to have all the trebs use the same target picked by one operator, but without success. Using the /groundassist command always returned a message to the effect of "You cannot assist this type of target." Perhaps we were not doing it correctly; I'd appreciate any instructions or tips.
This was no big problem when the enemy was on the fort doors, as we could all target that area easily. Once they backed off, however, we were forced to have the three treb operators each make quick runs up to the battlements to set now ground targets, and repeat this whenever the enemy moved to get out of the AE. The only coordination of aiming possible was through descriptions in chat. Because of the large AE radius and lack of damage dropoff, this worked surprisingly well - but it could have been so much better if we had been able to use a "fire controller" on the battlements.
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ParsecArmorcrafting
Moderator
Posts: 426
(1/30/03 12:50 pm)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Shagsbeard, the only effect it sounds like you are suggesting is to add more gradation in the engine tiers (10 instead of 3), make the ones that matter (say 7-10) cost a LOT more (Spyke said that current tier 3 = your suggested tier 10), and make the ones at the current prices a LOT less effective.
Please be careful calling for vast nerfs or vast increases in cost. You and/or your realm may be very wealthy and able to afford these nerfs, but the overall effect would be making siege engines used a lot less. It would not be just bad, it would be terrible.
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kameron17
Senior
Posts: 411
(1/30/03 1:25 pm)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
guye, my expiereice has been that (when using a stealther) for groundassist, is to have the stealther target, then get all the ones ready (gtae, siege, etc) and call for him to unstealth, they assist, and boom... now this works, but not all the time.
my biggest problem i (we) have run into is the enemy being out of range of the engine at that point (since he has vantage point and may pick target a little too far away).
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WOOT!
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Rizena Halcyon
Junior
Posts: 175
(1/30/03 1:31 pm)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
There is currently a text bug on the live servers when you do a /groundassist and says that you can't assist this type of target or something. It does move your target though. Try it where you can see the person's target that you're assisting and you'll see it move.
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Spyke
Patron Deity of Tradeskills
Posts: 175
(1/30/03 3:30 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
We're looking into the whole /groundassist text bug/other bugs, etc.
Also changed today on our internal server - Catapults and Ballistae degrade half as fast now.
Also, the "spell level" that the various siege engines is different for each level type even tho the "spell" is the same.
So an onager is set to spell level 30, a catapult to level 40, and a trebuchet to level 50.
So a level 50 hit with a boulder from an onager should get a significant reduction in damage compared to being hit with a stone from a trebuchet, just from the level difference alone... due to the way resists work, etc.
.ungawa
-Spyke
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Spyke
Patron Deity of Tradeskills
Posts: 176
(1/30/03 3:51 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Okay... another change today (and before you say anything, these changes have been on the list for a while, this week is siege week).
The arming timers on ballistae and catapults has been halved on our internal servers... So 10 and 15 seconds respectivly.
.ungawa
-Spyke
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Drelach
Assistant
Posts: 125
(1/30/03 4:48 pm)
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Re: Soliciting Input for Jan/Feb Siege Report
Excellent changes.
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Fret - 1065 Weaponsmith - Gawaine
Drelach - Future Spellcrafter - Gawaine
Erisien - 50 Champion - Gawaine |
Illyanna
Assistant
Posts: 118
(1/30/03 5:05 pm)
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I'd ask for more but ...
you'd just give me more than I'd ask for.
Changes sound good!
I'll start taking stuff off my report for Jan.
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Illyanna
Assistant
Posts: 119
(1/30/03 5:26 pm)
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Weight, Cost, and Space Reduction
Rams - 4 parts + 2 stacks
Ballista - 5 parts + 2 stacks
Catapults - 5 parts +3 stacks
With the changes Ballista will be near the weight and thus portability of a ram but still slightly more expensive and using an additional inventory slot.
Consider adjusting Ballista recipes to only require a single torsion cable - reducing the weight and cost slightly. To cover the difference reduce the weight of the other ballista parts a little less than half.
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