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Illyanna
Junior
Posts: 163
(8/6/03 11:58 am)
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August Siege Report
Since the April report, siege received icons for it's parts. Also Foundations allowed siege merchants to be owned in player housing, selling parts and materials. Thank you.
I'll break the remaining issues into categories: Bugs, Use Issues, and Wishlist.
Bugs:
1. The ability of ballistas to target inanimate object through terrain and keep features added in 1.60 was removed in 1.61. The changes in 1.60 brought ballistas to near 100% effectiveness.
2.. There is a damage bug where ranged siege fails to damage targets in the area. No failure messages. About 1 target in 6 seems to not be effected.
Use Issues:
1. Unstacking ammo requires a multiclick process. Hope for an interface addition to select a single object (ammo) and drop on the siege. Alternately when moving a stack to the siege it gives the message about not placing stacks on the siege, remove one ammo and add to the siege.
2. Siege Salvage - at 1sec per board, salvage takes too long relative to the speed of RvR. Please set all ram objects to Tier 4 wood material type and all catapult objects and ballista objects to Tier 5 wood material type. Set salvage value equal to 98% of crafted value. Siege recipes and thus purchase costs and crafting costs remain the same. See below.
3. The power-level of the onager and scorpian is too powerful for Abermenai and Thidranki. Even 'splash' damage from the scorpian can 'one-shot' players in Abermenai. Possibly add a Level 20/25 ranged siege for use by the siegemasters only which would do more appropriate damage to <25th players (arbalest and small onager for example). Would not need to be player craftable. Shift other siege merchants as needed.
4. Scorpian and Onager maximum range is 2500 compared to 3500 for the two higher grades of siege. This range difference amounts to a 60% loss in area of coverage compared to the 3500 range weapons. Please increase the maximum range on scorpion and onager.
5. Targetting of siege by spells - the size and immobility of siege makes them ideal targets for AE spells. This allows players to damage/effect players not otherwise in LoS by targetting siege and other inanimate objects in LoS. The spells themselves do minimal damage to siege but make it very difficult for operators to use the siege.
6. Documentation - old information on the HowTo is incorrect and misleading. Also should include intended ways to use siege (i.e. ballistas ignore walls for targetting, and the siege triangle: rams vs. gates, catapults vs. players, ballistas vs. siege)
Wishlist:
1. Allow siege to be moved post creation. Giving the option of moving siege to a new location makes it more likely to get the cash investment involved used in a meaningful way, Possibly as a control interface option ('ADJUST' pushes siege object 50 units toward target aimed at - with timer) or by a pick up and drop method (no player movement allowed but can adjust position by pick up range). Also possibly go as far as allowing pick-up of siege and player movement. See below.
2. New siege engines - especially items that are categorically different. Oil pots, blocking walls, craftable bombs/traps, ladders, siege towers. New ammo with alternative spells (including variations on damage type): DoTs, disease, stuns, root.
3. Reduce minimum range on ranged siege to allow more flexibility in placement for defending siege. Current options are limited to the keep rear for targetting the gate area. (Keep size is roughly 2400 square, with the inner gate ~300 into that and minimum range of 1500, defending siege must be placed in the rear 600 units of the keep - much of this is occupied by the lord tower and rear walls.) A siege placed in a front corner cannot target the gate area which is only 1200 away or less.
4. Alchemists and Spellcrafters wish to participant in siege (seems to be linked to a desire to salvage/trinket as well). Sounds like something is already planned for this. Suggest that the requirement for Siegecraft skill be dropped from operation but not from crafting the siege - primarily because melee hybrids can take alchemy and they tend to lack effective ranged abilities for use in keep centered situations.
I believe fixing Bug #1, addressing Issues #1 & #2, and adding an option for Wishlist #1 would have a strong positive impact on the use of siege in RvR. Damage output can wait until after the resist/debuff revamp upcoming.
The ability to move siege is somewhat tied to allowing guild keep defenders faster travel times to defend. Without the ability of defenders to arrive quick enough to prevent PvE keep takes I wouldn't allow mobile siege.
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Illyanna
Junior
Posts: 164
(8/6/03 12:00 pm)
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Salvage Analysis
Here is an analysis on the material levels and salvage amounts siege followed by what they would have if the salvage amount were based on item value.
Current Values:
Elm Small Ram
Crafted cost: 8.19.20
Merchant cost: 11.38.80
Salvage return wood value: 3.00.00
500 Elm
Oak Ram
Crafted cost: 13.59.20
Merchant cost: 16.78.80
Salvage return wood value: 12.00.00
500 Oak
Ironwood Siege Ram
Crafted cost: 27.99.20
Merchant cost: 31.18.80
Salvage return wood value: 36.00.00
500 Ironwood
Elm Scorpion
Crafted cost: 21.70.00
Merchant cost: 32.91.00
Salvage return wood value: 4.20.00
700 Elm
Oak Ballista
Crafted cost: 28.90.00
Merchant cost: 40.11.00
Salvage return wood value: 16.80.00
700 Oak
Ironwood Palintone
Crafted cost: 48.10.00
Merchant cost: 59.31.00
Salvage return wood value: 50.40.00
700 Ironwood
Elm Onager
Crafted cost: 32.46.00
Merchant cost: 48.33.00
Salvage return wood value: 6.00.00
1000 Elm
Oak Catapult
Crafted cost: 43.26.00
Merchant cost: 59.13.00
Salvage return wood value: 24.00.00
1000 Oak
Ironwood Trebuchet
Crafted cost: 72.06.00
Merchant cost: 87.93.00
Salvage return wood value: 72.00.00
1000 Ironwood
Salvage returns vs. cost vary from a 42g33s00c loss on merchant Onager to a 8g00s80c profit on a crafted Siege Ram.
I'd like to see the salvage return stabilized at a ~98% return.
Also I'd like to see the material level of each of the siege be raised to a level where salvage can be completed in a shorter time while the actual components/costs remain the same. (i.e. trebuchet is a Heartwood object salvaging for heartwood even though it requires 600 ironwood). This is to speed up the salvage timer.
Proposed numbers:
Small Ram - Ironwood material
Crafted cost: 8.19.20
Salvage return wood value: 8.02.81
111 Ironwood - Salvage Time 1:51
Ram - Ironwood material
Crafted cost: 13.59.20
Salvage return wood value: 13.32.01
185 Ironwood - Salvage Time 3:05
Siege Ram - Ironwood material (same)
Crafted cost: 27.99.20
Salvage return wood value: 27.43.21
381 Ironwood - Salvage Time 6:21
Scorpion - Heartwood material
Crafted cost: 21.70.00
Salvage return wood value: 21.26.60
98 Heartwood - Salvage Time 1:38
Ballista - Heartwood material
Crafted cost: 28.90.00
Salvage return wood value: 28.32.20
131 Heartwood - Salvage Time 2:11
Palintone - Heartwood material
Crafted cost: 48.10.00
Salvage return wood value: 47.13.80
218 Heartwood - Salvage Time 3:38
Onager - Heartwood material
Crafted cost: 32.46.00
Salvage return wood value: 31.81.08
147 Heartwood - Salvage Time 2:27
Catapult - Heartwood material
Crafted cost: 43.26.00
Salvage return wood value: 42.39.48
196 Heartwood - Salvage Time 3:16
Trebuchet - Heartwood material
Crafted cost: 72.06.00
Salvage return wood value: 70.61.88
327 Heartwood - Salvage Time 5:27
Natural decay numbers would be half the salvage numbers resulting in a >50% loss per siege item when it decays.
Outside of the BGs the Siege Ram, Palintone, and Trebuchet are typically used with corresponding proposed salvage timers of about 6:20, 3:30 and 5:30 respectively.
Current timers for these siege are 8:20, 11:40 and 18:20.
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Illyanna
Junior
Posts: 165
(8/6/03 12:01 pm)
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Moving Siege
At this point in the game, I'm requesting that completed siege engines be allowed to be picked up and replaced in new locations. The weight changes make this less of a believability issue since the weights for all siege are under 200 burden.
Qualifications:
Once created siege is on a real timer to decay. Undamaged Rams go 12 minutes without repairs and 40 minutes maximum. Undamaged Ballistas and Catapults go 24 minutes without repairs and 80 minutes maximum. Causing damage to opposing siege would significantly shorten this.
Within the current time limts for siege life what if you could move the engines from place to place?
I think 2 major changes to keep taking would make this feasable. Plus one siege fix.
1. Exponential increases to RP gains from taking defended keeps. Shifting players from PvE keep taking to RvR keep taking and actually drawing out battles (thus eating up the siege timer). Defenders and attackers would be more likely to use ballistas and catapults as they could expect to get 80 minutes use from the siege even if the battle location shifts keeps or realms.
2. Allowing guild players to port to their guild keep (defenders will lengthen keep taking times).
3. Fix ballista targetting through walls and terrain to allow both sides to damage each others siege at range.
Technically I'm not sure if it would work as a Ram/siege would need to continue to decay at the normal rate even when in inventory. Without this decay, picking up and dropping the siege would amount to the same siege being used for days or weeks. Optionally, it wouldn't hurt to damage the siege each time it is picked up to also shorten its lifespan.
Incidentally it would also allow players to pick up siege after a successful siege and salvage them at a more convenient location without holding up the rest of the raid party. (say inside, back at the pad, or at the next keep).
The same as salvaging, only the creating player would be allowed to pick up the siege. Probably require that any ammo be wasted when picked up with armed and aimed status reset.
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Toast In The Machine
Master
Posts: 643
(8/7/03 11:48 am)
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Re: Moving Siege
"2. Allowing guild players to port to their guild keep (defenders will lengthen keep taking times)."
Ooh... on a traditional server, there's no limit on how fast you can join and leave guilds. We take frequent advantage of this when we take keeps late at night, and can offer 7 people to help claim a keep.
It would be a small step from helping with a claim, to just guilding people long enoguh to port.
Ygrane, Armorcrafter of Tristan
Palla, Spellcrafter of Guinevere
Yggybold, Fletcher of Guinevere |
Illyanna
Junior
Posts: 166
(8/7/03 4:18 pm)
Reply
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Re: Moving Siege
If this went in I doubt insta-guild switching would remain. The 'dred code would obviously be a side effect.
Good point.
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