2/5/03 1.60B Comments on Battleground Changes

Great changes. Pat on the back.

I like the idea, but want more details.

How much is "significant experience?" When I read that, I am thinking of three to five levels being gained.

Also, I would much prefer to see higher battlegrounds in the stead of the lower one.

So, in affect, you would see something like this:

(Note that I did not do realmpoint limits by realmranks. Instead, they are merely by how much time I feel would be a good length to be in the battlegrounds)


1) Level's 20-24

Battleground -- Thidranki
Realmpoint limit: 400

Award for full completion: four levels gained.


2) Levels 25-29

Battleground -- Murdaigean
Realmpoint limit: 2500

Award for full completion: four levels gained.


3) Levels 30-35

Battleground -- Caledonia
Realmpoint limit: 9500

Award for full completion: four levels gained.


4) Levels 36-41

Battleground -- Jradlea
Realmpoint limit: 75000

Award for full completion: three levels gained.


5) Levels 42-47

Battleground -- Horgneal
Realmpoint limit: 200000

Award for full completion: one and a half levels.



Okay, Mythic. You would come close to perfecting your game if you did this, and I mean that sincerely.

No longer is the player forced to mindlessly kill mobs for hours upon wasted hours on end.

This system gives a variety to gaining rank all the way to level 50. Of course, now one can reach level 50 a little faster. But guess what? People are going to have the time of their lives in the process. No more being afraid to start up another character from the treadmill ahead.

You see, the above would be quite fun for entering each battleground at the top rank. From Thidranki, you go right to Murdaigean after hunting for one level. From there, you go back to hunting for two levels, but then enter Caledonia. After that, three more levels are to be gained via PvE, this time two of them being the painful forty ones. On comes Jradlea! After more leveling via creatures, the final battlegrounds, leaving the player on their final stretch for 50 in the PvE zones.

I want this. I wanted a server that was similar to this, but now I see that if all live servers were to implement the new form of battlegrounds, DAoC would finally become what it was meant to be: a game where the player can partake in either fair RvR or PvE to advance, a game where getting to maximum level does not rely solely on one’s ability to repeatedly kill mob X for one million times, a game where the player actually has *fun* in the process of reaching the endgame.

Mythic, I beg of you to consider this option.

I really enjoy the BGs as well. Personally I'll have something ready for the "new" BG1 as soon as it comes out hopefully so I hope to see all you guys there too.

Awesome idea adding BGs, I for one am for a BG5 36-40/41 as well. Obviously we don't want to detract too much from mainstream RvR but alas this may help to diminish the zerg and encourage more 8vs8 play.

Patch: Adding new 15-19 battleground.
Solves: Gives lower level players access to realm abilities.
OK, sounds reasonable. Now up the RP caps a bit on the other battlegrounds. Also add a new BG after Caledonia.

Patch: Adding Battleground Medal that gives experience for fully using a battleground.
Solves: Players want to be able to enjoy RvR in battlegrounds without giving up experience gain. PvE becomes a grind. A necessary evil for gaining access to the next battleground. Also adds incentive for using BG2. (I still don't understand why it is deserted. No one goes there because it is deserted?)
I'd rather see experience gained just like the PvP servers within a BG. Once you reach the max RPs, you can stop gain of RPs, heck, you can stop gain of experience too. I'd be even happier with both a medal and exp in the BGs.

Some interesting changes to BGs. Can you give us more information on how much XP is rewarded if you do the medal of honor thing? If it's a significant amount of exp, it might be a good thing, but it does also seem kinda complicated.

I'm assuming Mythic read the "Battlegrounds - Outside the Box" threads, and that's where they got some of these ideas. Some other ideas from those threads that we'd really like to see:

* Add a 36-40 BG and possibly a 41-45 BG, since for many classes, you can't really do much in RvR til 45+ other than die.
* Make RvR in BGs a valid alternative to leveling via PvE. Maybe that's what the medal of honor thing is designed to do, but it seems overly complicated. A much simpler alternative is to (1) increase the XP for RvR kills substantially, and (2) when you hit the RP cap, you don't get booted - you just stop getting RPs but you continue to get XP.
* Allow bounty points to be redeemable for money, so those who gain XP via RvR (in the BGs) can have some money. It should be balanced so that you'd on average make money faster via PvE, but die-hard RvR-ers should be able to get cash too.

Low level one is nice, BUT it will either be rarely used or kill off Thid.

Personally I think they should drop this low level one and instead add a 36-40, and a 41-45

It's extremely hard for someone who just got out of bg3 to find a rvr group. Atleast on my server most people want 44+ at the very least but will take someone lower level to round out the group of 8.

The medal of honor thing better atleast work if you are over the rp cap... My VW capped out of bg1 at 400+.... because of keep defense.

Edit> Also would like to add that you should change the bg layout if you add 36-40 and 41-45 bgs. Larger area(more people in these ranges during the grind to 50), with different keep locations and such.

Nice changes to the BG's.....good to see big brother is listening. One thing though:


You implemented the xp from RvR.......good change.

There are RP caps for each bg........thats cool.

BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!!.....let a toon only be booted from a bg due to leveling out. Keep the cap for rp's. So if I was level 24 and had reached the 350 rp cap......I would no longer gain anymore rp's, but I would be able to go back and RvR until I gain so much xp from it I level out That is the change I would like to see!!!

Just suck it up and do a battle ground for every 5 levels. Including 45-50

Love the changes to the BG but would like to see an increase in the cap on Thid, Most peeps will go into thid with 3rp already and you can only get 1 more rp in thid so most will skip it and wait for Caledonia. Unless od course the xp bonus is that good which I hope it is would be nice to see peeps in BG2.

Amen, Unbreakable-DD

People have been screaming for this from the highest mountains and yet they impliment this cheese.

Very good changes. I can't wait for this patch to go live so I can BG with some toons at level 19. BUT, you need to raise the caps on all the BG's... as some were saying, boost Caledonia, and then shift the caps downwards so that the new BG has thids cap and mur has cales cap. Also, while I'd love to see a 35-39 and 40 to 44 BG, I think that the 35-39 wouldn't get much action. People seem to like the break between leveling that the Thid and Cale Bg's give, but they also want to reach the big levels someday. I think that after cale, you would see people burning to 40, and a 40-44 BG would be very popular, while a 35-39 would be just like Mur is now...a virtual ghosttown.

Also, since I will probably spend more time BG'ing now, it would be a good time to add some maps to the BG's, so that they are not all the same. I mean, fighting at midgard bridge all the time gets kinda old.

"People have been screaming for this from the highest mountains and yet they impliment this cheese."

Look, you will NEVER, NEVER get the /rpoff or anything similar to it. There are some things about DAOC that Mythic will and will not do. Mythic's goal is to make Frontier RvR attractive to everyone, and get them out there. Making it so you can stay indefinitely in the BGs will not achieve that goal, no matter HOW MANY people ask for it.

The goal is make frontier RvR desirable, and only changes towards that goal will occur.

I've always felt the Thidranki cap was far too low.

Problem I have is that if I group with other players, I can couple out of Thidranki easily in 2 or 3 days because the low cap and large number of players there. Lately I feel I have to go solo in order to make the Thidranki fun last longer. And then I get to Caledonia (everyone skips Murd I think) and it seems to take forever to cap out of that BG because there are so fewer players and the gap between Thidranki's 350 and Caledonia's 7,250 is huge.

And now that you add in this new BG. If I cap out of the first BG now, then go to Thidranki, I know I'll cap out of there in about a day if I'm not careful.

There is definately alot of room to work with, I don't think you even need to raise the Caledonia RP cap, just double Thidranki to 700 and maybe shift up Murd (like anyone would ever notice) and leave Caledonia as it is.

Dobraine

I would hope that Mythic's "goal" is to make a game that people enjoy. By not allowing people to continue one of the most fun parts of their game for just a little bit longer, they prove otherwise.

"The goal is make frontier RvR desirable, and only changes towards that goal will occur."

Tell this to all the fuzzy hats and the 15-19 BG.

Kygan,

Let me clarify. I meant RvR-wise, only changes that either promote frontier RvR or at least doesn't take away from it.

They do want a game that everyone will enjoy. But they want that enjoyment to take place in the frontiers, at the end-game, rather than in the middle-game.

Thus, their changes and attitudes will reflect that, by instituting changes to improve the appeal of end-game RvR.

Despite what you or I want, at least RvR-wise, that's how it will be.

agreed, if they DO add a higher 36-40 bg, they need to make it so that certian RA's cant be bought, namely the overpowereing ones (IP, TS, See Hidden, Purge, etc...)

-I have 2 Master's degrees, but I must admit that the rules posted outright confused me... Particularly having to be at level +1. Does that mean that I have to level up in the BG? or that I cannot claim my reward until I am too old for the BG? If I am at BG level +1, how do I get back in to get my medal?

I'm sure the answer is in there somewhere, but I did not understand. Please clarify.

Also, must agree that the levels 35-40 are among the worst - would rather see something in that range rather than 15-20.

Cannot support any call for a BG after 40 - since this is what RvR is all about.

"Making it so you can stay indefinitely in the BGs will not achieve that goal, no matter HOW MANY people ask for it. "

Dob I did not say stay indefinitelty in the bg's. You are booted from the bg's when you level out not rp out. The cap would stay, once you hit that cap you no longer gain rp's but you still gain xp from killing mid/alb or hib. Say for instance in bg1(Thid) I know it SUCKED being 20-23 and fighting others. But once I got 24 and everyone was even with me IT WAS GREAT!!! IMO most people want to level up to the max level of each bg and then participate in them. The idea of capping out from level just lets ya stay in a little bit longer and the idea of xp'ing from killing others is a GREAT idea. But of course if you so choose you can PvE to 50.

Dobraine

Personally, I feel this would push a lot more people towards real RvR. The level grind is one of the biggest enemies of frontier RvR because the consensus is that you have to be 45+ to contribute. So, if you could level through the battlegrounds a lot of people, who would rather roll alts for BG1 then to get a toon to 45, might actually participate in frontier RvR.

I vote for the 35-40 BG and the 45-50 BG considering real RVR sucks

Why no 36 to 40 BG?

I tell ya I have a 24rnager that has been capped from the bg's for 2months now. I have just been crafting with him. When I first started to read the patch notes about the bg's........I HAD THE BIGGEST BONER......then I read the part in caps and was like BAH!!!! I thought they were going to say somewhere the rp caps stay but the only way to be booted is from xp'ing out.............................................................................































......................I need my Viagra Mythic GIVE IT TO ME

I agree-- the battlegrounds need a new layout. Keep the size they are, it's perfect, but vary the center keep/moat/bridge theme, and the Midgard Bridge is definitely the only one that ever gets used.

Murd is terribly unpopulated and might as well not even exist.

I like where this is headed, but I think players should have the option of using experience gained from RvR as their primary source of leveling. PvE in the home realm should be for item drops and quests, and perhaps limit RvR experience to 7/10 of the bubbles, or something like that. Let's face it- for many people PvE isn't fun, and having RP caps on the battlegrounds is forcing people against their will to return to a dull, frustrating level grind that keeps many people from playing the game.

And as you know, frontier RvR is stupid. Give us a 35-40 battleground, but I'm not sure about any higher-- however, the incentive to get DF and relics may be enough to divide the RvR population successfully between frontier and battleground, thus lessening lag and making it a more enjoyable experience all around. However, a lot of people would take advantage of these higher level BGs, and they should be slightly larger than the younger ones to compensate.

Will say it again - 36 to 40 BG is what is needed most. Then 41 to 45 BG next.

Yea, the description of the RP requirements confused me, too (only one M.A.).

I figger it'll get 'splained.

please remove the 15-19 battlegrounds, and please dont ever consider making a 36-40

I like the changes in Battlegrounds. But i think one should be added at 35-40. The long road from 35 outside of Caledonia to true rvr is tiresome and boring. Give us another so we can enjoy this game even more.

Aurelianus said:
"Particularly having to be at level +1. Does that mean that I have to level up in the BG? or that I cannot claim my reward until I am too old for the BG?"

From Herald:
"You can only receive the medal for a battleground if you are within the level range for that specific battleground, plus one level. For instance, you can only receive the Thidranki medal if you are between 20 and 25."

Emphasis on "you can only receive the Thidranki medal if you are between 20 and 25"

Aurelianus said:
"If I am at BG level +1, how do I get back in to get my medal?"

From Herald:
"Once players have participated in a keep raid and reached the required Realm Point level, players go to a new NPC in their home city and receive their medal of valor."

Emphasis on "players go to a new NPC in their home city and receive their medal of valor"

Shouldn't be that hard for someone with a double masters to comprehend...

36-40,41-45

Everyone seems to agree:

1) Raise RP caps on all battlefields. A one realm level boost seems appropriate. Make it R1L5 for Thid, for instance. The caps are currently way too easy to achieve, especially in keep fights.

2) Have RP-capped players simply cease earning RPs instead of getting the boot. They should only be locked out if a) they went over the rp cap through normal RvR or b) are of the wrong level range.

3) Add a 36-40 BG, and possibly 41-45.

4) Increase XP per kill, or make it so the medals give XP bonuses that are measured in full levels and not mere bubbles.

5) Attackers now have an incentive to go for the CK. Add an incentive for the defenders, too. Perhaps a relic-style 5% bonus to strength and magic that only applies to the BG zone. Or XP bonuses while defending the keep.


Keep up the good work, Mythic.

My biggest fear (which a few people mentioned) is that the new BG will either be unused, or hurt bg1. The XP gained is gonna have to be HUGE. It honestly needs to be
enough so that you tell your self.. I can't afford NOT to get my free BG xp. Else, adding another lower lvl BG will probably make the already thin BG's worse.

1. 15-19 Battleground - wonderful idea. This allows us to try out RvR before the level 20 single line respec.

I am currently working with a number of characters from 11 to 24. I am interested in how my Thane (peresently 15) will do as a healer/caster guard. That is her intended purpose and I can now see before putting too much time in on her if I like this role.

I have a 14 Bard, 14 Hero, 15 Mentalist, 15 Friar, 15 Sorceror, 16 Warrior, 19 Hunter, 16 Runemaster, 16 Shaman, 16 Healer. I only need a few levels on each of these to have them each at level 19 (except the Hunter who is there) to make the most of the new BG. If I do not like them the way they are, I have the level 20 respec.

2. My level 24 is Noor an Armswoman on Nimue. I quit playing her because after one successful keep assault (do I get credit for that?), I cannot find more than 8 or 9, at most, from my realm in Thidranki at any time, and most of them are Infiltrators who do not want to group with me. I am leary of going in there in my shiny suit of armor without some help. The XP to be given should bring larger groups to the existing BG's, so that is good, too.

3. I am all for having a successful keep assault as a requirement for the XP medal. The most fun I have had in the game was in the keep capture. This criteria will result in more keep offenses and defenses. There should be some bonus for a successful keep defense, though this is much harder to prove.

4. The ideas for the new BG and BG XP are great. The proper implementation will not be as easy. Please make the effort to make the rules a) work and, b) clearly stated so that n00b to level 50 understand them. You must be very precise as to the rules for the XP medals. The first criteria must be explained thoroughly. We need to know the rules. The present description is ambiguous to the extreme.

With proper implementation of clearly explained rules, the new BG and the XP for BG's are great ideas.

Thanks Mythic, now finish the job!

My only further request regarding the BGs is to somehow make it possible to stay in them as long as you want.

Either
1)add a command to lock your current RP gain (preferred) or
2)stop gaining in the BG once you cap.

The reason 1 is preferred is because it prevents the possibility of you accidentally getting more RP while outside the BG and therefore locking you out of the BG.

I need some clarification on what it means to successfully participate in a CK raid. In the group that kills the keep lord? Logged into the BG when keep falls? Do some percentage of damage to npcs/doors?
Its not clear what is required and how you will know when you've met the requirement. Hopefully a death and a rez during a raid will NOT disqualify a player for that raid.

XP bonus is nice, but seems a convoluted method. Why not just increase xp from RvR kills as has been suggested?

RP cap should be increased, and should not be a factor for booting you out. Freeze any RP gain when a character reaches the cap, but don't boot them. Boot on level only.

36-40 would be great.

Overall, very nice changes, I think the xp gaining method should be reconsidered, and clarifying what it takes to get credit for participating in a CK raid needs clarification.

-Zapata, Bors

Ok people.. start copying some BG chars to pendragon! We need to muster up enough peeps to get some CK raids going

I am probably alone here, but I would like to see ways that let me get through the BGs faster while still getting the RPs. The BGs are the best way to get the RPs so I can get realm abilities, but I find them generally rather boring and pointless. I usually take a character only so far as is necessary to get the desired realm ability then I return to leveling. I far prefer RvR on the frontiers which at least has the illusion of having some point and some objectives.

The BGs for me are as lame as RP-farming in emain is most of the time. If I want to do that I would rather do so on the frontiers.

However I do realize that most folks differ from me in this regard. I think if they are going to add a new lower BG from 15-19, then they should at least make its cap the current one for Thidranki, make Thidranki's that of Murdaigean, Murdaigean's that of Caledonia, and give Caledonia a new cap of say 25375 (Realm Rank 2 Level 5) or even 61750 (Realm Rank 3). This ought to please all those that love the BGs by giving them more time in Caledonia at least, plus make playing Murdaigean seem like much less of a penalty since it only shave a tiny portion off the points you can earn in Caledonia, and let folks who graduate all the BGs gain a significant rank and realm abilities in a more equal environment before they approach the Frontiers. If the purpose of the BGs is to provide training in your class while in RvR, and in general tactics in the field, then why not extend the amount of time you can remain there significantly, while still eventually seeing you graduate to the Frontiers but in a much better state to handle the folks who are already there.And as for folks like me who want to get through the BGs quickly - well, no one forces us to play there, if needs be I can level up to Caledonia levels and get all my RvR playtime in at that level where gaining the first few realm ability points would take no time at all.


Sneev

"1. Participating and living through a successful raid on a central keep that has been held by the enemy for at least 45 minutes"

I don't understand this. Do I have to just be within the BG when the keep changes hands to my realm, or on the actual CK island?

What if I am actively involved and die right before the lord is killed - do I stil get credit for participating?

What if I log in to the BG 30 secs before the keep changes hands - do i still get credit?

Outside of that - 15-19BG is just....weird. How do you flesh out a class by level 19? I think there will be tons of 1 class, but a lot of classes will be unpopular and so won't participate. Population problems just like 25-29BG.

Instead please just increase RP's of Thidranki - double them. You can graduate from Thid in 2 evenings way too easily. Get rid of 25-29BG, add a 30-35BG, and 40-45BG(by far the toughest levels to get groups at).

I agree with folks here. Nice changes but some things need clarified.

What, exactly, determines if you were part of a successful CK raid?

The parts about the medals are confusing."If you cap out you will not be able to go back and cannot earn your medal." Huh? Do you mean if we have not successfully raided the CK then we cannot go back and complete that step if we are RP capped? It also sounds as if we pass the RP cap we cannot earn our medal? Are we supposed to leave at the exact RP cap? That is nearly impossible, especially in Caledonia with the larger amounts of RPs per kill. Please clarify.

Other than these confusing items this is a great addition. Along with many others, though, I say PLEASE consider a 35-40 BG. Some classes (healing types, stealthers) are ok at best in the big RVR scene but most classes are just fodder for the higher levels if they really want to try to participate in RVR outside of the BGs before the 40s.

Somnus 4x Infiltrator-Kay
Kratos Ironwill 40 Paladin RETIRED-Kay

It is too bad you completely ignored the numerous requests for /rpoff and /rpon. I know it is tough to accept that the BG RvR is more fun than high level RvR, but you should at least listen to your paying customers in regards to that.

""Why do our suggestions have to be implemented in a (the only word I can come up with) twisted fashion? "

Because player suggestions USUALLY are ill-placed, although contain snippets of good ideas. Mythic takes the suggestions, and THEN puts them in an unbiased perspective and turns those suggestions into something that is good for EVERYONE, not just the people who suggested it. "



Bwwwwwwwwwwwwhahahahahahahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Thats a good one. Kind of like all the suggetions people gave for theurgists. Then Myhtic takes those ideas and makes completely new classes based on them in SI. Mythic takes ideas based on what is easiest for them to implement and what can make them money.

One potential problem is that player in the BGs who haven't yet taken the CK will not want to help defend it if they already own it. They'll want to let the other realms take the CK, so that they have a shot at participating in a successful keep raid. The current systems gives an advantage to the realms that don't hold the CK (opportunity to complete the CK raid requirement) while giving no benefit to the realm that holds it.

Maybe a system could be implemented where, if your realm holds the CK, any kills you get against enemies on the CK island (or within the CK broadcast region) give extra experience? Thus it would be possible to gain experience defending the CK as well as attacking it... Also, this would encourage players to participate in keep raids/defense even after they had completed the keep-taking requirement.

If I had the choice, I'd use a /realmpoints command to turn off me getting Realm Points. I'd park three of four toons at level 24 and just have fun with them. Isn't fun what this game is all about? I wouldn't have to level grind to 50 if I wanted to RvR.

Excellent Battleground changes.

If I had the choice, I'd use a /realmpoints command to turn off me getting Realm Points. I'd park three of four toons at level 24 and just have fun with them. Isn't fun what this game is all about? I wouldn't have to level grind to 50 if I wanted to RvR.
---------------------------------------------

Excactly! That is why they should make the system so once you entered the first BG, you didn't have to leave a BG until you were ready to compete in real RvR: Level 50.

Today, you cannot compete in RvR until level 50 and that is annoying with the level grind. Make the leveling fun, make it what this game is about, make it happen only in the BGs!

And sure, there would still be need for people to go out and explore the land and kill normal npc's and do quest. Afterall, if they don't have a level 50 toon to farm, they need to gather a little gold themself for equipment.

A game where you started at level 15 doing RvR in the controlled battlegrounds, and only killed NPC's for equipment should be the end goal for Mythic!

I really like the bg changes.

if 15-19 is 125rp cap
make the 20-24 bg a 125 rp higher then it is now

GJ Mythic!

Good start, but...

1- Look at the "Battlegrounds: Out of the Box" thread.
2- Use every idea outlined in the 2nd version of that thread.

Then I will be perfectly content with this game No more boring PvE for me, time to go exp on some middies!

Um, do you people at Mythic realize that this new, low level BG will be the MOST populated? How hard is it to whip up a 15-19 toon? People will reroll and reroll and reroll because the populated BGs are the MOST fun aspect of rvr! You really missed the ball by not allowing characters to 'turn off' rps and just be able to be there to have fun. your loss.

36-40 bg please.

At level 36, regardless of class, you don't stand a chance in RvR unless you are taking on 8 man squads while grouped with the entire Red Army.