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Official Thread: Archers IV
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Attaris
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Date Posted:
2/19/03 9:50pm
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RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Archers don't deserve to be in the position they are currently in. Every class has something that negates our bow line. And assassins have an ability that totally negates our stealth line beyond comprehensible means. Clip range? What a joke. Passive? LOL. 8 points...wow.
You justify this? Archers deserve this?
I'm sorry, but its Mythic's fault they didnt foresee archers as being Godly at release. That's their problem, not ours. So because we make our chars as we please, so that they are good, you now, after countless months of non stop nerfs, have reduced us to absolute fodder.
I miss so much, its ridiculous. I shoot someone, first 2 shots miss, the 3rd maybe hits and I'm excited. Lol, its pathetic really. Gotta love it when someone is down to a sliver and health, you wait 4 damn seconds to release the arrow......and whoops, FUMBLE, woah, no way.
This is what i usually experience while on my scout, its humorous, yet sad at the same time. See Hidden went WAY over the edge. PBT is stupid in my opinion, it ruins the game and aggrivate people. BUT i know we can't remove it, so no PBT classes come flame me. The only way i'd justify removing it, is if it was replaced with some other major factor in RvR, which would also probably ruin the PVP part of the game. Archers use a bow, correct? Its what they do. So because an archers primary weapon, hits 20 percent of the time ( according to accurate statistics posted by Scout TL ), does it really make any sense?
Some easy solutions, common sense really.
1) REMOVE SEE HIDDEN, its a slap in the face to any archer. Remove See Hidden and Camoflauge. Remove TS from archers, give it to assassins.
2) Give archers a 60 percent chance to be nullfied to BT, 40 percent chance to peirce BT. Also, PBT SHOULD NOT STACK with self BT or other PBT. That's stupid, ruins RvR for eveyrone, not just archers. Reduce the normal miss/fumble rate to match other classes, its only fair.
A 60 percent chance to successfully nullify an attack is good enough of a chance. If to push and shove, 65 percent would be acceptable.
3) Archers need more styles, not just CS. Volley is a joke. 4/5 arrows miss. 15 second timer is nice and all, but if you can't hit the damn thing, it kind of defeats the purpose. Its also a PAIN to set up ground target etc. Longshot......I see it as "wow, now I can miss from even farther away, woot!"
I suggest a speed decrease style with 1.5 draw time increase. There are plenty of other good ideas said by people, but a minor speed decrease would be nice.
4) Scout, which i'm going to point out, melee is terrible. A caster hits for as much as me with his stave. With 16+13 thrust, my scout hits for 45dmg normally ( if i'm lucky). With 50+13 thrust, I hit for 70ish. Hmmmmm.
If Mythic is going to make our melee SO ineffective, why does our bow miss/fumble so much? Why does engage block 99 percent of shots? Why does guard block 95 percent of arrows? Why does a shaman, doesn't have 1 point in shield since its non specable, block my arrows when facing me? Why if I'm a master archer, 50 in bow, can't I shoot an arrow when I am Dotted? Why does every tick interupt me? WHY after I stun someone with shield, they are in combat mode ( just looking at me ) and I'm interupted? (/boggle on that one). Why does BT block succesfully 99.9 percent of time? WHY is archery the only spec that at range, reactive procs activate on us? Why can assassins see us by using an 8 point passive skill? Why does Camo go away after we attack someone? Doesn't it defeat the purpose? Scouting? hmmph. Why is Camoflauge on a 10 minute timer? For Christ Sakes, 1 minute seems to long, but that sure as hell would make more sense to me. Why isn't volley and longshot in our specline? Why is our primary spec have no styles? ( all other classes have styles/spells in there primary speclines).
These sum up my questions for Mythic, but of course they wont answer....scared I guess. God knows Sanya wont say anything.
Feel free anyone to answer that LONG list, it could go on a little longer, but its late, and I'm tired.
/salute Leylie the lvl 50 SB that just convinced me to start posting again. Your 250dmg every 2 seconds vs my 37 melee dmg vitalizes my belief in Mythic as a band of..
i'll just stop before I'm banned again.
Sorry for typo's ;D
ZzzzzzzzZzzz
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<GM Claetus 50 Mercenary Jesters>
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Belshirash
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 12:19am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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/sigh
still no patch for archers in sight...
Longshot/Volley is a joke... What if i just want volley, not longshot. i have to get both? wow, great job, wasted 6 points on Longshot!
/sigh
-----signature-----
Belsher - Skald on Killibury [Retired] A bunch of other Mid / Alb Bors toons... all shelved http://camelotmonkey.com/s.php?u=belsher Qualzar - Mage on Ragnaros EU http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ragnaros&n=Qualzar
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ConcernedScout
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 3:43am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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I wonder how many mythic employed play any one of the 3 realm's archers. I dare say noone! They all play assasins Im sure.
I want an official statement from mythic about the state that archers are in! I want to see just exactly how they view Scouts in particular.
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{old}-MacGyani-
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 4:57am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"2) Give archers a 60 percent chance to be nullfied to BT, 40 percent chance to peirce BT. Also, PBT SHOULD NOT STACK with self BT or other PBT. That's stupid, ruins RvR for eveyrone, not just archers. Reduce the normal miss/fumble rate to match other classes, its only fair."
Why? Where's the proof that the spells/skills/abilities of any other class need to be adjusted? I support helping Archers, fixing class specific bugs, and adjusting class specific issues, but you should only go to the spells/skills/abilities of other classes once the bugs and issues of your own direct class have been taken care of.
Also, I need to dispell some misinformation. First of all, the bladeturn chant does not stack with the single or self bladeturn. If you have a self or single bladeturn on, when the bladeturn chant pulses, it will replace it. Actually, it doesn't even stack with other bladeturn chants. You never have more than one active bladeturn effect at any given time. When you interlace 2 or more bladeturn chants, you can reduce the time between pulses, but again you never have more than one bladeturn effect active at any given time. Interlacing is not automatic either. If you have two 6sec bladeturn chants pulsing at the same time, you will only receive the benefits of only one bladeturn chant.
Bladeturn, Bladeturn Chant, and Bladeturn Chant Interlacing are all working as intended, by Mythic's own words. The only way they will change any of them is if enough proof is given to them to justify it. This proof needs to go to Mythic, not myself or anyone else on these boards. If you can prove to Mythic it needs to change, then you have a case. If you can't, then you're just spinning your wheels.
I do though agree that the Miss/Fumble rate needs to be addressed. Also, normal bow shots are not styles, but they do burn endurance. They shouldn't. No other normal attack burns endurance. Normal archery shots shouldn't burn endurance, only archery styles.
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{old}AdderMLF
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 5:42am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"Bladeturn, Bladeturn Chant, and Bladeturn Chant Interlacing are all working as intended, by Mythic's own words. The only way they will change any of them is if enough proof is given to them to justify it. This proof needs to go to Mythic, not myself or anyone else on these boards. If you can prove to Mythic it needs to change, then you have a case. If you can't, then you're just spinning your wheels."
It is likely that eventually Mythic adjust the interlacing of pbt by either removing it entirely or giving it some diminishing returns. The only chant effects that stack are very weak ones like paladin healing chants.
I don't think it's high on Mythic's priority list, since it only really effects a small number of players.
Interlaced pbt is only used in one realm, and only by a handful of groups. It only impacts archers (very low population) and 2H weapon users (very few of these outside of Hibernia).
Basically Hibernia has 99% of the interlaced pbt, and 90% of the 2h weapon users, and thus it's not worth addressing this issue, because only archers are left to complain.
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Artfull Dodger
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Corea
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 6:27am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Bumpity bumptiy! Official thread. This needs more discussion.
-----signature-----
To an optimist the glass is half full.
To a pessimist the glass is half empty.
To a programmer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
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Wileran
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 8:45am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"When you interlace 2 or more bladeturn chants, you can reduce the time between pulses, but again you never have more than one bladeturn effect active at any given time."
While technically correct, the clarification of "stacking" vs. "interlacing" pbt is pure semantics. The end result is the same, i.e., more coverage than one 6 sec pbt would do on its own. If this is "working as intended", that means it is "working as intended to contribute to the effective 20% hit rate for archers". How can it *not* be a part of that 20% hit rate? Sidenote: I would also say that scouts probably are the most effected by this since single pbt is rare enough in alb, let alone having two being "interlaced".
"I do though agree that the Miss/Fumble rate needs to be addressed."
Well, if you agree on this, the chances are more than likely that something will need to be done with "interlacing" pbt, or something will have to be given to archers to compensate for it. Otherwise, the "effective" miss rate can only be improved so much, which imo would likely still be lower than it should be.
As for SH/TS/Camo, remove them all. Worst set of band-aids in the history of gaming. Of course this will never happen as it would require a massive admission of error on Mythic's part. At the very least, take out SH/Camo and give TS to all stealthers. The plain simple fact of having a passive, 8 pt RA which effectively negates an entire spec line is ridiculous in the extreme.
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Caleth, Armsman - Gareth
Too many old toons long since gone.
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{old}-MacGyani-
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 9:04am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"It is likely that eventually Mythic adjust the interlacing of pbt by either removing it entirely or giving it some diminishing returns. The only chant effects that stack are very weak ones like paladin healing chants."
Why is it likely? Again, Mythic isn't going to make a change without proof and/or justifaction. So far that hasn't been given. A change isn't likely unless there is something to support it. Opinions aren't enough.
Now this is my opinion on the matter...
If after the archer's base hit/miss/fumble rate is adjusted, more bow styles are added with 'to-hit' bonuses and it's still not enough, then we can look at archers and their relation/interaction with BT/BTC/BTCi. I just strongly feel that the archer's base hit/miss/fumble rate needs to be addjust first. Then after that Archers need more bow styles outside of CS (some of which should include various degrees of the 'to-hit' bonus). These are class specific issues. Class specific issues should be addressed before you look towards the spells/skills/abilities of other classes. Who knows, if the class specific issues are fixed first, then maybe you won't have to touch the spells/skills/abilities of other classes. But if it's not enough, then at least you have the class specific issues out of the way.
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ocelot2099
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 9:12am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Misses and fumbles may actually be "normal" non-styled melee rates. But archer bowshots are MUCH more critical to their success than an unstyled swing of a sword is to a tank.
Archers need to have the endurance usage taken off their normal bowshots once they get maybe more than 30 bow spec. Maybe once they hit 30 bow they recieve a +to hit bowshot that costs no end, and at 35 they recieve crit shot X, which has a +to-hit as well as the damage multiplier of crit IX.
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Reactivated, playing on classic. Until Warhammer, at least.
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Wileran
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 9:14am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
- Date Edited:
2/20/03 9:21am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Wileran
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Okay Mac, let's try this. Do you think Camo was a good idea? Be honest. It follows your logic of not fixing SH but rather giving archers a counter. There's not one person I know who things the SH/TS/Camo paradigm is a good one. However this is exactly what you are proposing in lieu of fixing or modifying interlaced pbt. I think this manner of fixing the game is what gets it in trouble in the first place.
Edit: Please do not repeat "it is not me you have to convince it's Mythic". The purpose of this thread is debate, so let's keep it in that spirit. Mythic probably will never read this or if they do, our TL will be (and has been) the one to provide proof.
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Caleth, Armsman - Gareth
Too many old toons long since gone.
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{old}-MacGyani-
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 9:33am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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That's different though. It goes back to a much older problem. First, stealth isn't stealth, it's invisibility regardless of surroundings. Second, previously there was no check or counter for stealth. So a stealther always had the advantage over a non-stealther because they could pick the fights they wanted. The RAs were added to give a class type the means of hunting stealthers. Previously, every other class type had a bane or predator. But Mythic messed up in my opinion, they made one stealth class the predator of another stealth class and gave them too much of an edge over the other. Either tanks, hybrids, or a combination thereof should have been made the predator/bane of stealthers, not other stealthers. In my opinion, stealth should never have gone in the game in the form it's currently in; see hidden should have gone to a non-stealth class and had more restrictions in place.
Stealth should have been most powerful close to large objects (walls, trees, ect). In a well shaded corner or in a thick of tall trees, an attack could be made without unstealthing. In the open field stealth should have been extremely weak. Because honestly, outside of magical invisibility, how are you to hide? Unless the grass is tall, laying down won't even cover you.
See Hidden was not a class specific fix, it was an addition to counter the ability of another class (and it's too powerful). That's where things began to go wrong. Instead of fixing it directly, they added another ability to archers, not to fix archers directly, but to help counter the ability of another class type (assassin's see hidden). So you see, it's not the same thing. BT/BTC/BTCi were no put in place as specific counters for the abilities/skills of other classes. It is a PvE/RvR ability that can be useful and totally nullified if tactically countered properly. Stealth's RvR effectiveness far outweighs the PvE effectiveness. Yes, it can be effective in PvE, but nowhere near so to RvR. See Hidden is just about useless in PvE, it's designed for RvR.
Stealth, SH/TS/Camo, ect changes/fixes are a much more complicated issue that are a very poor comparison to hit/miss/fumble rates and archer interaction/relation to BT/BTC/BTCi.
In my opinion, Legends of Kesmai got stealth right. DAoC did not. If it had, then a lot of other additions wouldn't have been needed. A shame that LoK isn't around any more. If Mythic were to borrow from their Stealth design, then the game would be far better for every by leaps and bounds.
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Doc_McAlister
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 10:28am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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And most importantly, mac, you are ignoring realm balance.
Most PBT is in hib. PBT drastically reduces archer effectiveness.
Move archers up in other ways, till they are balanced fighting your standard hib group and suddenly they are overpowered in situations where half or more of their damage isn't being negated .. ie almost all alb/mid groups that don't have pbt.
A class is not balanced if its overpowered vs two realms or underpowered vs one.
Also, there is precedence. Many aspects of the game have been designed to make weapon delay immaterial.
Damage shields, for example, hit slow weapon wielders harder than fast weapon weilders so that regardless of weaponspeed you take the same damage over time.
Damage adds do the same thing. A damage add on a slow two handed hammer adds more "per hit" than the same add on a dagger .. but both deal the same over time.
BT and PBT, however, don't ignore weapon delay. With BT its acceptable cause it isn't a persistant effect. PBT, however, ranges from 20% to 80% damage reduction depending on the weapon speed of the attacker.
PBT is the defensive equivalent of an Everquest damage add. Everquest damage adds add a set amount per swing no matter what. A side effect of this was that damage adds did almost nothing for a 2H user or a swordNboard, but were very effective on a fast duel weilder (esp ones with addtional kick or special attacks available on top of weapon swings). This is bad design. It put the spell in an odd state where if it was toned down to the point where it didn't overpower duel weilders then it was pretty much just decorative to everyone else. A damage add strong enough to make a 2H paladin appreciate the help, however, would turn a monk into a death machine.
The so-called "balance" to this was damage shields. They'd barely hurt a slow weilder but tear a duel weilder to shreds. The solution to this for players was that fast attackers would not attack until the shield had been dispelled .. which rendered the "balance" this supposedly provided moot since when it takes several minutes to kill a mob not attacking for a few seconds isn't really a sacrafice.
The eq damage add/shield system was bad design. It was a signifigant contributing factor to the non duel weilding tanks (paladins and shadowblades) being substandard. It was why every warrior in the game was primarily a duel wielder with a 2H kept around just for special situations .. like when a warrior was helping powerlevel a group and wanted to do some damage ... but not enough to take the kill.
PBT is also bad design. It marginalizes long delay 2H weilders while only providing moderate defense against duel weilders.
Cause even if PBT was the ONLY way an archer could ever possably miss ... its still going to block the first (most important) shot. It's still has a very good chance of blocking the second shot (depending on when it refreshes) and if it doesn't block the second it will block the third. So vs a pbt group an archer is still seeing a huge reduction in damage(which, once again, is ALL AN ARCHER BRINGS TO THE GROUP).
And now we are back at the realm difference .. do we adjust archer damage so that the one shot of their first three (be honest, in your average rvr confrontation the archer is unlikely to get more than 3 shots on a person before interrupted or target gets out of range) that actually lands does enough damage to be worthe the standing still for 6 - 9 seconds (ie similiar to the damage a caster could get off chain nuking for that long)? That'd make them just another damage caster vs pbt groups .. but they'd shred non-pbt groups like confetti by delivering 6 - 9 seconds worthe of chain nuking in 2 - 3 seconds of shooting. Not good. the reverse .. blancing archers agaisnt everyone else but rendering them nearly useless vs pbt ... is less damaging to the game overall but still not fair. It makes the ranger head and shoulders better than hunters and scouts as they don't have to face wardens as well as leaving alb/mid archers in the same boat we are now .. where people tell us not to bother coming cause thats a *hib* gank group and its not like we'll be able to do anything.
You may not like it, but PBT is part of the problem. Its bad design through and through. BT is rather nasty all by itself cause it eliminate the "alpha strike" advantage of slow weapons. But at least its not a persistant effect and can be gotten arround by leading with a hit from a dagger then switching to the polearm.
Turning PBT into an ablative smooths thing out. It would effects ALL weapons the same way. Not a wimpy 100 point ablative, need a bigger buffer than that.
Alternately, balance archers against pbt in its current form then make it baseline for runies and theurgs so that all 3 realms have an equal amount of it.
There are other ways to balance it as well I'm sure. Wardens could be given potential specs with great amounts off offense .. that are only obtainable at the sacrafice of PBT (perhaps an albion style advanced weapon spec that requires speccing two lines to be effective).. then given a respec. If enough wardens specced out of PBT it would cease to be such a nasty factor.
I prefer the ablative cause a decent size ablative buffer is worlds away more useful than PBT in its current situation (as PBT has pretty much killed the forms of attack its strong against by being to effective.) Most people who really look at the potential damage reduction realize that they are better off with a pulsing ablative than a pbt. And upgrading pbt to an ablative would cause more runies to spec into it once everyone realized its potential.
-Doc
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{old}VenatorDeBellum
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 11:18am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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>>Also, I need to dispell some misinformation. First of all, the bladeturn chant does not stack with the single or self bladeturn. If you have a self or single bladeturn on, when the bladeturn chant pulses, it will replace it. Actually, it doesn't even stack with other bladeturn chants. You never have more than one active bladeturn effect at any given time. When you interlace 2 or more bladeturn chants, you can reduce the time between pulses, but again you never have more than one bladeturn effect active at any given time. Interlacing is not automatic either. If you have two 6sec bladeturn chants pulsing at the same time, you will only receive the benefits of only one bladeturn chant. <<
while stacking may be the wrong word, the interlacing aquires the same effect for an archer trying to hit a caster. The exact way that pbt works is from cast time the bubble is formed and every pulse the bubble then casted again and the old bubble is replaced with the new bubble. since this refreash does not register other pbt timers, this pulse will go off at the registered time. now suppose if another pbt is casted. this new pbt will cast its own bubble at the required pulse time overriding the old bubble whether it is the person's own bubble or someone elses. thats how you can get the 6 second bt into a 3 second. This 3 second pulse isn't a true 3 second pulse though. its simply one pulse overriding the old pulse. thus the pulses can go like such:
pulse 1 goes off
pulse 2 goes off 2 seconds later
pulse 1 goes off 4 seconds after pulse 2 (6 seconds from the first pulse)
pulse 2 goes off 2 seconds after pulse 1 (also 6 seconds from its own first pulse)
etc
thus its not a perfect syc of 3 seconds between pulses, but simply the timer resetting themselves on their respective pulse timers
BUT it doesn't have to stop there. because pbt works for a group, you can have up to 8 pulses going off and interlacing each other. theoretically you can then have a group of 8 6s pbt going off interlacing each other at less than 1 second per pulse! to my knowledge no melee class minus duel wielders will be able to hit through 1 second pulse times (which requires 6 6s pbt)
now because this interlacing refreashs on itself, single handed and 2 handed weapons have difficulty hitting through interlacing pbt because the timing of the pbt make it so that the pbt refreashs on itself faster than a person can attack. this is expecially true for 2 handed weapons like the bow to do damage do to slow swing/draw times.
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Meurto_Tristan
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 11:49am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Mac, while I agree with you on fixing archers miss/fumbles rates, this doesn't do any good if an archer still gets a large majority of shots PBT'd. Hibs have a major advantage when it comes down to this. Most hib groups have pbt and rangers rarely have to face pbt let a lone interlaced pbt.
You are right about stealth, it is a problem. Take a look at emain and tell me how an archer is supposed to "stealth" on a golf course under your proposed revisions of stealth. It is not very likely. There needs to be more places to hide if something like that was going to work.
As for SH being a way to keep "stealthers" in check, it is only effective against archers and minstrels. There is no real way to control assassins. For the person that says TS is the answer then I guess you wouldn't object to replacing SH with TS. After all, if it is good enough for you then it is good enough for the rest of us.
Archers need some serious help. Fix miss/fumble rates and give archery styles or allow it to be considered a styled attack with a med bonus to hit. Remove the ability to interlace pbt. Rangers will see a significat increase in hit percentage, but I believe scouts and hunters will still be haunted by pbt.
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Taloz
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 12:04pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"I do though agree that the Miss/Fumble rate needs to be addressed."
I appreciate that Mac, but my miss/fumble rate is about 11% on average. Even if it was 1% I would be missing to much. So something else has to be done beyond that, fix miss rates to be reasonable first but it's clear that won't be enough.
Sometimes the miss/fumble rate is much higher, but it doesn't average out to be extreme. What is extreme is the total failed attack percentage when you factor in all the blocking, evading and especially bladeturning.
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Schlag: 50 Skald, Stormur Vakten - Bedevere
Taloz: Master Scout, Eagle Knight - Lancelot (retired)
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{old}AdderMLF
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 12:23pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"Why is it likely? Again, Mythic isn't going to make a change without proof and/or justifaction. So far that hasn't been given. A change isn't likely unless there is something to support it. Opinions aren't enough."
It is likely because Mythic staff plays the game, reads the boards and conducts their own internal testing. Believe it or not, they know that archer population is very low, and they will try and look into ways to improve their game play.
My opinion does matter, because there's a chance however small that Mythic might read this thread, and decide to carefully test the effects of interlaced PBT on archers and 2h weapon users.
It is likely that eventually they will see that interlaced PBT is infact an overpowering ability, when looked at from the eyes of an archer, or 2H weapon user.
"If after the archer's base hit/miss/fumble rate is adjusted, more bow styles are added with 'to-hit' bonuses and it's still not enough, then we can look at archers and their relation/interaction with BT/BTC/BTCi."
I am still unsure if the miss rate of archers is excessive compared to melee classes. I guess I am gonna have to run my own tests to satisfy my curiosity, since I can't find any data showing this relationship on the boards.
"I just strongly feel that the archer's base hit/miss/fumble rate needs to be addjust first."
Let's say the actual hit rate is 75% (not counting any form of defense at all. Would that be too high/low? Where should it be? Should melee have a higher chance to hit? If so what chance should they have?
"Then after that Archers need more bow styles outside of CS (some of which should include various degrees of the 'to-hit' bonus)."
"There are to hit and damage bonouses directly attached to arrows already. No need for to-hit styles, just tune them as needed. I'd like to see a quick-shot added though (because interuptions are probably the archers biggest enemy), but not at a high spec, it's needed in BG1 just as much as in emain"
"These are class specific issues. Class specific issues should be addressed before you look towards the spells/skills/abilities of other classes."
Well not really. I don't think that archers miss that often, I think they are BLOCKED, GUARDED, EVADED AND BLADE TURNED very often.
"Who knows, if the class specific issues are fixed first, then maybe you won't have to touch the spells/skills/abilities of other classes."
Yes, archers, espeically rangers will be doing a little better, but scouts and hunters will still have to face 6 second PBT often interlaced, on a class with a shield and lots of HP.
As people learn this game they gravitate to tactics that actually work, and perfect their deployment.
The only thing really holding back interlaced PBT from being abused is that the classes/spec line associated with it are not especially popular.
"But if it's not enough, then at least you have the class specific issues out of the way."
Assuming there is a class specific issue. I am not totally convinced (ok not at all), that archers miss that often, but I do know that a LOT of their shots are evaded blocked, guarded and turned by BT.
Whether we give them a way to by-pass these defenses, or reduce the effectiveness of them the net effect is the same.
One sign that PBT is overpowered to me is that often we will let a runemaster 10 levels lower than us into our XP groups because even though he can't do ANYTHING else, PBT is that effective.
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Artfull Dodger
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Date Posted:
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RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"PBT is also bad design. It marginalizes long delay 2H weilders while only providing moderate defense against duel weilders."
One possible solution is to change PBT so that weapon delay effects the chance of it deflecting a blow, so that over time all weapons will be turned equally.
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RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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This isn't to everyone who replied, only to those it applies. Don't make this personal. This is a discussion. No low blows, no pot shots, none of that. Again, if you don't think it applies to you, then it doesn't.
I'm not ignoring realm balance. All three realms have bladeturn. That is balance. The difference comes when the Theurgist has the least reason to spec in the BT line and the Warden has the most reason to spec in the BT line (with the RM in the middle). You will not balance this by giving any one class or class type an advantage in piercing/bypassing bladeturn simply because an oposing realm has more classes with the higher level versions of this spell. Honestly, archers have little to do with the balance of bladeturn itself. There are only three classes that have anything to do with the balance of the bladeturn chants, and those are the classes with bladeturn chants. The way to fix that is to give Theurgists/Runemasters just as much a reason to spec in their BT line as the Warden and to give the Warden just as much reason to spec in a non-BT line as the Theurgist/Runemaster. Then and only then will you have balance across all three realms when it pertains to BT. Archers have next to nothing to do with it.
11% is still too high for a class that depends so much on their bow for offense. If a caster misses with a bolt or DD, big deal. They can quickcast some CC. If a tank misses with a combat style, big deal. They've got the defense to allow it. Archers don't have the CC nor the defense to counter. Archers do need a much smaller miss rate than other classes. Like bolts, 'in combat' can cause problems with actually hitting the target. Like cast spells, a draw can be interupted. Like melee, an arrow can be evaded, shield blocked, or BTed. Archery gets the down sides of melee and magic. So, the miss rate should be far less to counter.
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RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"Archery gets the down sides of melee and magic. So, the miss rate should be far less to counter."
I agree wholeheatedly with this Mac. I believe that this simple change would make a world of difference for archers.
I still think the whole See Hidden/Camo/Truesight thing needs to be addressed, but other than those two things I would feel pretty balanced if they were fixed.
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2/20/03 1:22pm
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RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"One possible solution is to change PBT so that weapon delay effects the chance of it deflecting a blow, so that over time all weapons will be turned equally."
I like that idea but there are some down sides. With BT as is, there is little processing power needed. "Is BT effect active? Yes, melee attack can be blocked. No, melee attack can hit." It's pretty simple. But if it needs to calculate success rates depending on DPS/Wspeed, it'd take quite a bit more. When you get into 8 people in a group with one chant, then that's 8 different computations. If it is possible without causing too many resource or lag problems, then I'd have nothing against it. Those with BT would lose a little to slow weapons and gain a little to fast weapons so it'd balance out. Slow weapon users would get a little upgrade. Faster weapon users would get a little down grade. In a case like this, I think you'd get more complaints out of the dual wielders than you would the BTCers.
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2/20/03 1:50pm
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RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"I like that idea but there are some down sides. With BT as is, there is little processing power needed. "Is BT effect active? Yes, melee attack can be blocked. No, melee attack can hit." It's pretty simple. But if it needs to calculate success rates depending on DPS/Wspeed, it'd take quite a bit more. When you get into 8 people in a group with one chant, then that's 8 different computations. If it is possible without causing too many resource or lag problems, then I'd have nothing against it."
Doc's post made a lot of sense to me and he's right about the DPS rules being bent by delay not being taken into account for this ability.
I am glad that you like this idea, because it shows you are really not biased and can be swayed by a good argument (Which was made by Doc not I).
The game is already making such adjustments for damage adds and damage shields so I don't think system resources are a big issue.
It's just more work for the coders to do, and might not be an item they are willing to invest their limited time into.
"Those with BT would lose a little to slow weapons and gain a little to fast weapons so it'd balance out. Slow weapon users would get a little upgrade. Faster weapon users would get a little down grade. In a case like this, I think you'd get more complaints out of the dual wielders than you would the BTCers."
Fast weapons enjoy a huge benefit in this regard already, I can't see too many people complaining that the field was levelled.
I play a shadowblade and a warrior, both use fast 2.9 speed 1h axes (specifically to beat pbt), so I would be on the losing end of the scale, and I don't mind one bit losing a little bit of my effectiveness relative to 2h and bow users, when it comes to piercing pbt.
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Artfull Dodger
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Wileran
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 2:26pm
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RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
- Date Edited:
2/20/03 2:32pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Wileran
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"See Hidden was not a class specific fix, it was an addition to counter the ability of another class (and it's too powerful). That's where things began to go wrong. Instead of fixing it directly, they added another ability to archers, not to fix archers directly, but to help counter the ability of another class type (assassin's see hidden). So you see, it's not the same thing. BT/BTC/BTCi were no put in place as specific counters for the abilities/skills of other classes."
I disagree. BT/PBT was primarily added to counter archers one-shotting casters. I will look for the old official mythic statement saying as much and I will post. And that being said, using your words above, they should fix that directly rather than adding a counter to it (like the SH/Camo debaucle)
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Wileran
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RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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P.S. There is another thread which shows the effect of PBT and why it needs to be addressed. Again it's purpose was to help against archery but combined with all the other counters in game, its too much now.
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=45499832&replies=56
"The results aren't great:
Total arrows fired with volley= 117
Total arrows that actually hit but not necessarilly damaged a target= 45
Of arrows that hit here is how many actually did damage= 15"
Parsed log file:
http://home.swbell.net/talisian/volleylog21603.html
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RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"I'm not ignoring realm balance. All three realms have bladeturn. That is balance. The difference comes when the Theurgist has the least reason to spec in the BT line and the Warden has the most reason to spec in the BT line (with the RM in the middle)."
Having only 1 spec point per level means that many runemasters and theurgists will not have this ability, or have it at a lower level than a warden.
I honestly don't feel that realm balance is greatly effected by hibernia having more PBT though, because the other realms have some great advantages.
However I do think that interlaced pbt + multiple pbae is overwhelming.
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Artfull Dodger
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Date Posted:
2/20/03 3:03pm
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RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Wileran
"I disagree. BT/PBT was primarily added to counter archers one-shotting casters. I will look for the old official mythic statement saying as much and I will post. And that being said, using your words above, they should fix that directly rather than adding a counter to it (like the SH/Camo debaucle)"
That's not true. BT and BTC were in the game during the beta testing and they were there at release. The "nerf archers" run was well after release. Archers were in their 'uber prime' while these abilities were already in the game. The difference is that at release only 3 classes had any form of BT. With this, Archers were "uber." Bladeturn and Bladeturn Chant on three classes (one per realm) did not have any great negative effect on archers. And yes, even bladeturn chant interlacing was in the game way back when. Later, after release though, all cloth casters were given a self-only bladeturn chant. It helps not to confuse the time line. If you need help, please feel free to ask, I'll help as much as I can. Just to repeat BT/BTC were not added as a specific archer counter. These abilities were in the game from before release. But all casters receiving a self only bladeturn was an archer counter that did come after release.
That's a big reason of why I say that archer specific issues need to be addressed first. Before archers were nerfed, Theurgists, Runemasters, and Wardens all had bladeturn and the Bladeturn chants. Dispite this, Archers were still at one time the most powerful classes in the game. If the class specific issues are addressed then it's quite possible that BT/BTC won't be as much of an issue for archers. But in the case that it still is, then we can look outside of the archer class specific issues for change.
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