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Official Thread: Archers IV
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arghazel
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 10:08am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Now hold on.
My level 42 Cleric, FULLY BUFFED with my uber level 42 buffs, went out to RvR for the first time ever and got killed in just three hits from an Archer! Admittedly, I was soloing with a support class and got killed by a sniping class 8 levels higher than me, and I just stood there for at least 8 seconds while the first two shots hit me, but...
Mythic OMG how can you possibly justify that! Sanya! Nerf archers!
-----signature-----
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Iron_Mage
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 10:36am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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I'll go ahead and post my archer wish list...
1. (hunter specific), since Hunters have no defensive skill to spec, and only evade 2, it would be nice and in the flavor of the hunter class to add parry to their list of skills they may opt to train. Since hunters can't equip any sort of shield, the idea that they are not taught ANY defence other than very rudimentary dodging is absurd. While we're at it, making the parry autotrained (so that hunters get one autotrained skill...currently they have none) would also be a nice touch.
2. (all archers). Miss/fumble rates need a serious review. Given the effectiveness of shields at blocking, the availability of bladeturn for all casters, and all the other archer related defences, to have such bad accuracy on top of that is overkill (which results in archer underkill...). In addition, these bad miss rates makes solo hunting as an archer (which is often by neccessity rather than choice) very chancy. One set of 'miss/miss/miss' and you are a dead archer, which moves the xp bar in the wrong direction.
3. When you compare longshot to other similar attacks in the game, it comes up wanting. Longshot is an extension to the normal shot, thus it needs to act like other classes extensions to their attack. The Friar haste buff and the Reaver DPS buff come to mind right away, these stay in effect for a period of time (20 seconds or so) and then can't be used for 180 seconds (3 minutes). You might also compare it to the 'insta' damage or snares that classes like the skald get, where it's ONE attack, but the reuse timer is 30 seconds. Right now, longshot is ONE attack, with a reuse timer more like the multiple attack enhancements (in other words, the WORST of either system). Either make is so that you can make longshots for a period of time (20 seconds?) then can't use it again for 3 minutes OR you can make one longshot every 30 seconds. Either would make the skill useable in a realistic way without making them overpowered (after all, the shot is not a crit shot, and it's still subject to bladeturn, block, and evade).
4. Volley is a GTAE, why does it have to act so much different from every other GTAE in the game? Volley uses ammunition, and it's the ONLY way an archer can do any sort of AE damage. What would be nice is to reduce the range for volley (as well as the damage) and make it work just like any other GTAE in the game, except that it uses ammunition. This includes the 6 second reuse timer that all GTAE's get.
5. Once volley and longshot are fixed, why not do the RIGHT thing, and either reduce the cost drastically OR (even better) put them in the bow spec line.
6. Archers lack any way to make use of alchemy with their bows, why not create a set of alchemical 'poisons' just for arrows. Poison arrows were quite common in all cultures. Some sort of 'snare' effect, dot, or other proc would be a nice addition to the archer's set of tricks.
I don't know how many of these abilities could be implemented without overbalancing the class. I don't think that most archers are in favor of returning to 'god mode' since that only leads to a bad case of nerfage, but clearly the state we are stuck in isn't what we thought our characters would be when we created them. Maybe archers never should have gotten stealth in the first place, however since they DO have it why not make it work? See Hidden needs to be balanced, it's horribly over-powerful now. Reducing the camo timer, or changing camo to automatically kick in if no enemy is visible in your clipping plane would be some suggestions. However, if see hidden is COMPLETELY nerfed that wouldn't be fair to the players that bought the skill in good faith either, so maybe it would be best to delete see hidden in it's current form and introduce a new RA that enhances detect hidden appropriately would be an excellent compromise.
All I really know for sure is that I once enjoyed playing my Hunter, now I can not stand the thought of taking it to the frontier.
-----signature-----
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive
and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the
other, totally worn out and screaming "WHAT A RIDE!!"
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{old}-MacGyani-
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 12:37pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Please read my posts and my signature before replying to me. Lets start with my signature.
I am not a Mythic Employee
I am a VN Moderator, I am not an IGN/VN Employee
I do not receive a paycheck from Mythic, IGN, or VN
I am the Warden TL Emeritus (remote volunteer position)
Emeritus - adj : Retired but retaining an honorary title
I am not the Warden TL. I have not been the Warden TL since June of 2002. I am the Warden TL Emeritus. As stated in signature, I am retired as a TL. Neill is the current and active TL. I thought I would clear up any confusion by clearly stating it in my signature, but apparently, people are still getting confused and think I am the Warden TL. I'm not.
Second, time and time again, I've stated that I am all for helping the Archer classes. BTW, check out today's patch notes. It's not everything, but's a small start. Archers still need more. I'll list suggestions and ideas I support up one arm and down the other. But please, get the point, I am a supporter of archer help.
My only disagreement is the order in which this help should happen. To me, it's basic logic that to fix archers, archer class specific issues need to be address first. If after that point it's not enough, then we move on to other classes and their abilities/skills/spells. It's very difficult for me to understand how others can't see that logic. But even when I get flammed for this difference in thought, I still support archer improvement.
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{old}Justinius_S.
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 12:48pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Well... couple nice things going on test server.
- Archers whose target dies while trying to release an arrow will now remain nocked, and they can select a new target.
Finally!
- Longshot has had its cost reduced to 6 points. A refund is granted for players who have already purchased it.
- Volley has had its cost reduced to 8 points and its reuse time is now 15 seconds, significantly shorter than before. A refund is granted for players who have already purchased it.
- The initial time to prepare a Volley is now half of what it was.
Well... movement in the right direction. Still should be in our bow spec line though. Refunds for those who got it? How about those of us who spent our points on things like TS and purge and...
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Ryana_Vixen
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 12:50pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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- Archers whose target dies while trying to release an arrow will now remain nocked, and they can select a new target.
Yes, this is a good thing. Hopefully the trend will continue and Mythic will address archer issues.
-----signature-----
Ryana Vixen, Ranger of Hibernia
Guildmaster, Vae Victis
Proprietor of Terevanin'curim en Hibernia (Hibernia's Finest Bows)
3219 Ushnagh, County Meath, Guinevere
(Achiever: 66%, Socializer: 46%, Killer: 46%, Explorer: 40%)
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Rahe
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 12:51pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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More positive improvements for archers. Nope, they may not be "uber" or anything but they are positive. All archery changes have not been negative and you guys that lead people to believe that they have need to stop trying to fool people.
-----signature-----
"Nukes were used on Japan for one reason and one reason only... to scare the bejeezus out of Stalin." - Danval "I'm in the top percentile of the population IQ-wise." - Danval 
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{old}silenn
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 12:52pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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--------
"Yes, this is a good thing. Hopefully the trend will continue and Mythic will address archer issues."
--------
i wish they'd start it off with one of our main problems, such as miss/fumble and See Hidden, instead of this kind of thing.
-----signature-----
[ Vivisect VI :: 42 Runemaster ]
[ Silenn Chernobyl :: 50 Ranger - brehon . rank3L6 ]
[ Vivisect Eugenics :: 50 Bard - silver hand . rank6L2 ]
: lancelot - hibernia // pellinor - midgard :
http://www.propaganesia.net
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TyusKanan
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 12:53pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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those changes made in 1.60F are *decent* it seems to make a change in the right direction and make both abilities actually viable...however, these abilities still need to be in our speclines for Hunters ranger and scouts..NOT as an RA...and then it also brings up the arguement that our core abilities to counter bladeturn etc is still a very large problem...though the VOlley set up does help a lot with making us useful in keep sieges...
however if i am correct, Volley still requires LOS, correct?
if it does..then you really arent living up to what volley is...its a large amount of arrows shot in the general vicinity of an attacker, unaimed, shot at a high arc sot hat the archers themselves arent in immediate danger
-----signature-----
Tyus Kanan 50 Skald Gareth
Fisticuffs 60 Warrior Sargeras
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{old}Cela1
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 1:09pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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all of us archers need to just forget it. Mythic isnt going to return us to any reasonable level of effectiveness. It costs them money.
Other classes hate archers for what we were able to do a year and a half ago. The casters are a way more played and numerous group and they are BY FAR the noisiest whiners on the boards. you wont see one archer related post where they arent flaming us into the ground claiming we roam around one shotting yellows in plate with impunity.
There are more people playing casters than there ever were playing archers. So if they return archers to be able to kill a caster, they will quit, costing Mythic money.
As a business, Mythic is trying to keep as many people as possible. Fixing archers is bad for their business so just forget it.
Its frustrating i know, but i quit and while i cant say im happy about it, i am at least reconciled with the idea that Mythic will never have my money again. I recommend you people do the same.
I never thought i'd say things like this, but it IS a lost cause
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Bluebury
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 1:15pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
- Date Edited:
2/13/03 1:30pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Bluebury
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I don't know about y'all, but 14 points is still more expensive that I would be willing to pay. Is anyone really planning on buying them?
And Mac,
This is not intended to flame you, or disrespect you in any way. I do not agree with your logic of changing archers and leaving other classes skills in place. As I see it, if I were to boil down my list of archer grievances, it would look like this (listed in order of importance).
1.) Arrows simply do not hit targets enough. (BT, PBT, nested PBT, shields, evades, ablative shields, reactive procs from range, pure misses, fumbles, too difficult to successfully crit, etc.)
2.) Archers as a group have very low survivability (see-hidden, detect hidden, interrupt codes, low AF, low evade, poor melee, low hps, etc.)
3.) Archers serve little purpose in either PvE or RvR groups (no cc, no BT, no group buffs, no tracking, etc.)
I feel for the wardens out there in that they are a one trick pony. Lord knows I would not like to be one, but you can not divorce PBT from the percentage of arrows that do not hit a target. You have a vested interest in preventing archers from hitting people in your nested PBT groups. Casters have a vested interest in the baseline BT that prevents archers from being successful against them. Tanks have a vested interest in the shield spec being successful against arrows. Assassins have a vested interest in continuing their RP feast on archers. Since all the countermeasures are practically 100% effective against arrows, how do you put meaningful archer changes without adjusting other skills?
At some point, either a class needs to be prey to archers, or some other role besides damage needs to be provided for archers. If it’s the former, another class needs to be adjusted.
Double arrow damage, reduce misses and fumbles to 0% and I still could not land one arrow against anyone in you 2-warden group. I still can not land a crit on a caster before he uses /face and quickcast (since my first arrow was 100% BTed). I still can not defend myself from every infiltrator/nightshade who comes within clipping range of me.
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Wulff_Grymmskaft
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 1:16pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"My only disagreement is the order in which this help should happen. To me, it's basic logic that to fix archers, archer class specific issues need to be address first. If after that point it's not enough, then we move on to other classes and their abilities/skills/spells. It's very difficult for me to understand how others can't see that logic. But even when I get flammed for this difference in thought, I still support archer improvement."
Not every archer dissagree Mac and some likely appreciate your thoughts.
As for 1.60F.
It took a year but YEA for the shooting corpse bug fx.
Volley/L.S?
Still a waste of 14 pts.
14 pts for V/LS or 14 pts for IP?????????
all the shots can still miss, what if you fumble ( hehe) , impractical usuage,LOS. Min range requirement etc,etc.
Why do NO TANKS spend 10 pts on their style RAs? Its virtually the same.
Regardless atleast this time they tried and I'll take that.
-----signature-----
<Nordic Rage>
Wulff
Shewulff:
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Vepres
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 1:26pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
- Date Edited:
2/13/03 1:28pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Vepres
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archer counters/nerfs:
Gave 6 second stackable pulsing blade turn to others.
Gave pets the ability to chase archers from unlimited range.
Gave casters in each realm "Near sight" anti-archer spells.
Gave all casters self blade turn.
Gave Assassins "Detect Hidden" to see archers at range.
Added 10 second delay to restealth.
Made it impossible to stealth while mezzed.
Increased draw times.
Increased fumbles. With 50 base longbow I often fumble twice in a row and sometimes 3 in a row.
Increased misses.
Increased the chance to "unstealth" when nocking an arrow, not firing. With 63 stealth 2 out of 3 times is the normal.
Added interruptions.
Reduced damage to sitting players.
Reduced damage to higher level players
Gave assassins 'See Hidden' on top of 'Detect Hidden' so they can see higher level archers regardless of stealth spec. It sets the archers level / stealth to 1.
Reduced bow damage in PVE and RVR by 20%. They didn't post this but one of the developers himself explained it.
Increased Bow Draw Times by .1 seconds, without including it in the patch notes, or attempting to fix it when it was confirmed by mythic after the TLs' reported it.
Added 1.5 second restealth timer after unstealthing. This will keep Archers from using a 'stealth radar' to avoid getting killed by see hidden by speccing low stealth. It will also keep archers from canceling their shots and restealthing quickly after being unstealthed on bow draw.
players who are stunned can use the strafe buttons to avoid archery attacks. This is a known bug that only affects archery attacks
-------------------------------------
archer improvements:
the 2 RA skills promised to be spec based skills, longshot and volley, have been reduced in cost to 14 points, and their timers have been lowered.
Archers will no longer shoot dead targets whom their bow is drawn at. This was a bug reported upon release, that has been fixed in february 2003.
ENJOY playing your archer!
-----signature-----
Greentext 50 Cleric <Active> from Buffbot to Bofbot
Vepres Mortifer 50 Scout, <Inactive>
http://www.notacult.com/images/CD_MMORPG.swf
^^^^^^^^^^^
hurry up and sign up for beta, this is the next great mmorpg
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{old}Fumbler
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 1:27pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Would Mythic allow realm skill re-spec for archers since they have made changes to the RA table? Cos some of us might want to sacrifice other RAs for Volley since it costs less and is on a small timer.
-----signature-----
Eryk FumbleALot --- LvL 50 Ranger --> Hibernia - Tristan
Teryk BotALot --- LvL 48 Bard --> Hibernia - Tristan
Teryk SoulTaker --- LvL 50 Armsman --> Albion - Bedevere
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r_master78
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 1:39pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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i say volley is useless until they fix it so it requires no LOS like wizzys gtaoe...
-----signature-----
Eanna Pierceheart, Saracen Scout, Lancelot <DAoC>
Kyuzo, Elvaan Samurai/Warrior, Ifrit <FFXI>
Dentuso, Gravity/Storm Controller, Virtue <CoH>
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bergbaum
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 1:57pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"As a business, Mythic is trying to keep as many people as possible. Fixing archers is bad for their business so just forget it. "
100 % d'accord. They wont fix us.
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{old}-MacGyani-
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 2:00pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
- Date Edited:
2/13/03 2:03pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
{old}-MacGyani-
|
"I do not agree with your logic of changing archers and leaving other classes skills in place."
See, again I ask you read my posts before replying. I didn't say anything about leaving other classes skills in place. What I said was:
"To me, it's basic logic that to fix archers, archer class specific issues need to be address first. If after that point it's not enough, then we move on to other classes and their abilities/skills/spells."
See, there's a difference. Fix archer class issues first. Maybe that'll be enough, maybe it wont. But it just makes sense to take care of class specific issues first when fixing a class. And as I said, if that's not enough, then we can look towards other classes and their abilities/skills/spells.
As for the archers who agree with my line of logic, thank you. Today's archer changes were positive but they aren't the end. There is still a long road ahead. Good luck and I hope to see more positive archer changes in the patch notes.
On the brighter side, at least you're in the patch notes. I don't think Wardens have been in the patch notes since late summer of 2002. 
*Edit*
Vepres, you're information is a bit off. Bladeturn, group bladeturn, bladeturn chants, and bladeturn chant interlacing have been in the game since beta. It just took a little time for people to level up and learn how to use them. Archers were "uber" after release. So bladeturn chant was not an "archer nerf" in any way. Bladeturn chants were on the runemaster, warden, and theurgist long before the "nerf archers" cries started.
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{old}AdderMLF
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 2:33pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"And yet, people are saying, archers should be where they are, archers are fine, well not for the people who've spent countless hours on them just to see them brought to utter uselessness and even the archer TLs say 'take a break from the class'"
Very few people are saying archers are fine, although many of us disagree about what needs fixing.
Most of us (non archers) don't approve of anything that will result in the return of the sniper.
I want to see the birth of the archer, I want to see archers have the ability to turn the tide of battles, I want to see them have something pve groups want.
I would start by looking at their pve skill set, and add something that they can do better than anyone else.
Then I would look at their RvR skill set, and define for them a clear role on the battlefield, and boost their abilities to fit that role.
If we can agree on what an archers role is, we are half way to fixing the class.
My personal bias is that archers should be good against casters. Archers are not good against casters for the following reasons.
A: Archery range is a little too short, mostly because groups close at such speed due to their spells / endurance chants, and because the draw time on archery is very long relative to this range.
B: Archery damage was balanced against mobs where an opening crit shot did a lot of damage, this opening shot is often negated by pbt (or self bt) in RvR.
C: Archers suffer from all the same sources of interuption as casters (and even a unique one in reactive procs), but have no CC, and no quick cast with which to regain the initiative.
D: Casters hit archers has hard as archers hit them (a lot harder if pbt is a factor).
My solutions:
A: Reduce the cost and duration of long shot so that every archer wants it as their very 1st RA.
B: Add a quick shot ability so casters can use it to drop BT and still get a damage shot on the target in a reasonable amount of time.
C: Make archers more resistant to interuptions from spells, no more than a 25% chance.
D: Give all archers some anti magic ability. Either a self spell turn, or a naturally high chance for a 100% resist (say 3 times higher than all other classes).
These changes would make archers totally dominant over casters on the battlefield without allowing them to 1 shot them.
-----signature-----
Artfull Dodger
50 Kobold Warrior
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GGtheHunter
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 3:06pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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From page 4 of the "Galaran was telling the truth, y'all  " thread in this forum:
========================================
"FYI - The last tests I performed on Volley, which was when they announced the change last week, Volley doesn't require LOS, I had no trouble shooting into the courtyard of a keep from the outside.
-----signature-----
Tusca Glacier <The Band Alliance>
51 Hunter <Lancelot>
How many times have you heard:
"If we only had a Hunter we'd be set."? "
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Fonda_B
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Title: +V King
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 3:14pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Hmmmmm
With RA cost changes a realm respec should be given.
-----signature-----
Fonda Bononza
DAoC 50th Dwarven Hunter Einherjar
WAR 40th Ironbreaker
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chainrxn
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 3:17pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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For those that have tested Volly RECENTLY on test.
What is the hit rate like on a normal keep taking/defending force? Is it anything more that a BT removal tool?
This actually could turn out to be a significant change for archers...if they made it hit at a decent rate.
-----signature-----
Dranic 4x Critblade - Bed
Anhillius 4x Runecarver -Bed
"Only two things are limitless, the universe and human stupidity. I am no so sure about the former" A.Einstein
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Rahe
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 3:33pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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"Vepres, you're information is a bit off. Bladeturn, group bladeturn, bladeturn chants, and bladeturn chant interlacing have been in the game since beta. It just took a little time for people to level up and learn how to use them. Archers were "uber" after release. So bladeturn chant was not an "archer nerf" in any way. Bladeturn chants were on the runemaster, warden, and theurgist long before the "nerf archers" cries started."
Thanks, Mac, for correcting Vep. He suffers from being misinformed. He also suffers from having 2 consecutive shots PBT'ed last night by a Hib group on Bors. He thought there was more than one Warden in the group but it turns out that there wasn't and he was just unlucky.
Vep, man, don't get sucked into the "OMFG archers are the most nerfed class EVER we suck so bad" sickness. I suggest you play another class to gain a better perspective on balance issues.
-----signature-----
"Nukes were used on Japan for one reason and one reason only... to scare the bejeezus out of Stalin." - Danval "I'm in the top percentile of the population IQ-wise." - Danval
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chainrxn
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 3:41pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Mac, i respect your opinion. And i believe you are right about the order in which changes should be made. I think eventually it will come to lessening some of the antiarcher defenses but who know.
On the other had i have to disagree with you on one thing. Bladeturn was NOT in since beta. I'm not certain about PBT, but Bladeturn, group blade turn, and targetable bladeturn was added in a month or two AFTER realease. It was added in at the same time that remaining stealthed when lining up a crit shot was nerfed. I'll see if i can find the patch notes.
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Thie1
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 3:54pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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I don't think volley requires LOS. Remember someone posting about it that had tested it.
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{old}Teucros
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 3:56pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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[ ]Make True Sight like See Hidden
[ ]Make See Hidden like True Sight
[ ]Remove them both
[X]Remove See Hidden and offer True Sight to all stealthers for 10 points
Thats my vote, but I would find if very interesting for mythic to post this poll on their website to see how the daoc community as a whole feels. We must remember that there are more classes than just a rogues out there 
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cain4439
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Date Posted:
2/13/03 4:07pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Archers IV
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Changing the costs of RA's does nothing to help the new Archer level up or find a group.
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