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Topic:
Animist Damage Output/Power
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Netspidr
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Posts:
466
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/2/03 5:20pm
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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"After all you're the one who stated that 1 animist can kill 35 tanks.
Of course so can A Hunter, A Thuerge or any other class... it's the requirements that differ."
The requirements are what it is all about. A hunter would have to target each one, and fire uninterupted with full LOS. A Thuergest's pets do not last nearly as long, and do not have ranged damage, and also require LOS to cast, if I am not mistaken. The requirements for the animist, doen't even require him to be alive. 35 tanks is simply the damage that can be done by 10 pets. It would probably take about 35-40 seconds for the average level 50 to cast those pets. I think it is reasonable that a level 50 Animist could produce 10 pets, with the right stuff, based upon my experience with my level 50 rr5 Runemaster. An archer can't sit there and fire arrows that wait for someone to come into LOS. The Thurgists pets can't be cast just before teh doors of the keep falls, to automatically target the nearest enemy. The Animist is overpowered in more ways than just damage, it is in concept that it is overpowered. And the sky is blue, no matter what you tell me. I suppose I am just unreasonable.
Darkstride - Bedevere
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GroDaTroll
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Jan '02
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Date Posted:
1/2/03 5:39pm
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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"The requirements are what it is all about. A hunter would have to target each one, and fire uninterupted with full LOS. A Thuergest's pets do not last nearly as long, and do not have ranged damage, and also require LOS to cast, if I am not mistaken. The requirements for the animist, doen't even require him to be alive. 35 tanks is simply the damage that can be done by 10 pets."
See there is the rub again. THE POTENTIAL, according to paper. The reality 35 tanks VS anything is going to a dead something (Excluding mEpic mobs etc).
35 Tanks AFK tanks is another matter...but they'll all die. All your looking at is the damage potential. You have yet to look at the other side of the coin.
The Theurge pets don't last long...but they do an effect AND melee damage and they can move. The Theurge get's a good damage shield & damage add & PBT.
Animists are similar to the necro...their offense is their defense. Their Strength is also their weakness. Non-mobile pets with a limited lifespan.
I do not deny their may be adjustments that need to be made..but that is AFTER the problems are fixed first & they have been tested with the LoS changes & the fixes. NO CLASS should be blindly nerfed/changed based on paper figures, assumptions and guesses. Which is what your claims are based primarily on.
-----signature-----
Mehlan, Former Dictator of the Pendragon Midgard Alliance
and Former member of the Mythics Internal Tester Forums.
"If the Pend players had "hijacked" the server things would be tested and the server wouldnt be the ghost town that mythic now has. "
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GroDaTroll
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Jan '02
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Date Posted:
1/2/03 8:47pm
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
- Date Edited:
1/2/03 9:02pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
GroDaTroll
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Ok here is a quick log...
Both the Animist and the SB are lvl 26.
Animist in green/grey armor. Sb in Yellow/Orange. Animist using a Heartwood Animist Staff.
SB has a whopping 2% Body Resist.
Animist could summon 4 FnF max on power bar.
*** Chat Log Opened: Thu Jan 02 21:49:53 2003
[21:50:17] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "Test of Animsit damage to an equal con SB, 2% body resist"
[21:50:39] Ceolaan casts a spell!
[21:50:40] You are hit for 79 damage.
[21:51:02] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "direct hit of lvl 20 AoE"
[21:51:13] Ceolaan casts a spell!
[21:51:14] You are hit for 86 damage.
[21:51:36] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "lvl 20 Bomber, DD"
[21:51:45] Ceolaan casts a spell!
[21:51:46] You are hit for 75 damage.
[21:51:46] Your Body resistance has decreased.
[21:51:53] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "Debuff Bomber"
[21:52:02] Ceolaan casts a spell!
[21:52:02] You are hit for 93 damage.
[21:52:06] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "life drain"
[21:52:21] You resist the effect!
[21:52:36] You are hit for 124 damage.
[21:52:46] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "DD from congtrolled pet"
[21:52:46] Your Body resistance increased.
[21:53:03] You sit down. Type '/stand' or move to stand up.
[21:53:14] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "medding... 4 bubls health left"
[21:53:43] You stand up.
[21:53:46] You are too close to an enemy to hide!
[21:53:49] You are too close to an enemy to hide!
[21:53:50] @@[Alliance] Dillon: "i ahve 2 "
[21:53:52] You are now hidden!
[21:53:56] You sit down. Type '/stand' or move to stand up.
[21:54:24] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "Stealthed, will put up 1 FnF turret and approach."
[21:54:44] You stand up.
[21:55:22] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "I was able to walk to animist and back w/o fnf firing"
[21:55:36] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "stealth is 8..."
[21:55:55] You are no longer hidden!
[21:55:59] You are hit for 52 damage.
[21:56:03] You are hit for 83 damage.
[21:56:07] You are hit for 63 damage.
[21:56:11] You are hit for 69 damage.
[21:56:15] You are hit for 64 damage.
[21:56:19] You are hit for 55 damage.
[21:56:23] You prepare to sprint!
[21:56:25] You are no longer ready to sprint.
[21:56:49] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "i have 3 bulbs of health"
[21:56:51] You sit down. Type '/stand' or move to stand up.
[21:57:48] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "That was 3 hits from the lvl 21 Forest Spirit, cast by a lvl 26 Animist."
[21:58:27] You stand up.
[21:58:39] You target [Ceolaan]
[21:58:39] You examine Ceolaan. He is a member of an enemy realm!
[21:58:42] You enter combat mode and target [Ceolaan]
[21:58:42] Your strike was absorbed by a magical barrier!
[21:58:42] You miss!
[21:58:42] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 21 (-1) damage!
[21:58:42] Ceolaan does 5 extra damage to you!
[21:58:42] You are hit for 5 damage.
[21:58:45] You miss!
[21:58:45] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 18 (-1) damage!
[21:58:45] Ceolaan does 5 extra damage to you!
[21:58:45] You are hit for 5 damage.
[21:58:47] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 19 (-1) damage!
[21:58:47] Ceolaan does 6 extra damage to you!
[21:58:47] You are hit for 6 damage.
[21:58:47] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 17 (-1) damage!
[21:58:47] Ceolaan does 6 extra damage to you!
[21:58:47] You are hit for 6 damage.
[21:58:50] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 18 (-1) damage!
[21:58:50] Ceolaan does 8 extra damage to you!
[21:58:50] You are hit for 8 damage.
[21:58:50] You miss!
[21:58:51] Your character has been saved.
[21:58:52] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 21 (-1) damage!
[21:58:52] Ceolaan does 6 extra damage to you!
[21:58:52] You are hit for 6 damage.
[21:58:52] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 19 (-1) damage!
[21:58:52] Ceolaan does 8 extra damage to you!
[21:58:52] You are hit for 8 damage.
[21:58:54] You miss!
[21:58:54] You miss!
[21:58:57] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 16 damage!
[21:58:57] Ceolaan does 7 extra damage to you!
[21:58:57] You are hit for 7 damage.
[21:58:57] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 23 (-1) damage!
[21:58:57] Ceolaan does 7 extra damage to you!
[21:58:57] You are hit for 7 damage.
[21:58:59] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 22 (-1) damage!
[21:58:59] Ceolaan does 6 extra damage to you!
[21:58:59] You are hit for 6 damage.
[21:58:59] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 19 (-1) damage!
[21:58:59] Ceolaan does 8 extra damage to you!
[21:58:59] You are hit for 8 damage.
[22:00:00] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "Damage shield and Armor Spell on animist... SB has Axe/La 26/26+2 using fine alloy hand axes."
[22:00:23] Ceolaan casts a spell!
[22:00:24] The regenerating spirit casts a spell!
[22:00:45] You enter combat mode and target [Ceolaan]
[22:00:45] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 35 (-1) damage!
[22:00:45] Ceolaan does 8 extra damage to you!
[22:00:45] You are hit for 8 damage.
[22:00:45] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 35 (-1) damage!
[22:00:45] You critical hit for an additional 5 damage!
[22:00:45] Ceolaan does 8 extra damage to you!
[22:00:45] You are hit for 8 damage.
[22:00:48] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 33 (-1) damage!
[22:00:48] Ceolaan does 7 extra damage to you!
[22:00:48] You are hit for 7 damage.
[22:00:48] You miss!
[22:00:50] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 35 (-1) damage!
[22:00:50] Ceolaan does 8 extra damage to you!
[22:00:50] You are hit for 8 damage.
[22:00:50] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 34 (-1) damage!
[22:00:50] Ceolaan does 7 extra damage to you!
[22:00:50] You are hit for 7 damage.
[22:00:52] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 29 (-1) damage!
[22:00:52] Ceolaan does 8 extra damage to you!
[22:00:52] You are hit for 8 damage.
[22:00:52] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 34 (-1) damage!
[22:00:52] Ceolaan does 6 extra damage to you!
[22:00:52] You are hit for 6 damage.
[22:01:16] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "Melee again, animist sans Armor buff"
[22:02:22] You are now hidden!
[22:03:05] @@[Guild] Nyghtshayde: "4 Fnf, aadn controll pet... approach stealth and melee animist"
[22:03:28] You target [Ceolaan]
[22:03:28] You examine Ceolaan. He is a member of an enemy realm!
[22:03:33] You are no longer hidden!
[22:03:33] You are hit for 84 damage.
[22:03:36] You target [Ceolaan]
[22:03:36] You examine Ceolaan. He is a member of an enemy realm!
[22:03:36] You are hit for 62 damage.
[22:03:37] You are hit for 61 damage.
[22:03:37] You are hit for 61 damage.
[22:03:37] You are hit for 107 damage.
[22:03:37] You enter combat mode and target [Ceolaan]
[22:03:37] You prepare to perform a Ravager!
[22:03:37] Ceolaan is too far away to attack!
[22:03:37] You are hit for 78 damage.
[22:03:39] You must perform the Ravager style before this one!
[22:03:39] You attack Ceolaan with your axe and hit for 35 (-1) damage!
[22:03:39] Ceolaan does 6 extra damage to you!
[22:03:39] You are hit for 6 damage.
[22:03:39] You miss!
[22:03:40] You are hit for 73 damage.
[22:03:40] Nyghtshayde was just killed by Ceolaan!
[22:03:40] You have died. Type /release to return to your last bind point.
[22:03:40] You died fighting for your realm and lose no experience!
[22:03:40] You can't enter combat mode while lying down!
*** Chat Log Closed: Thu Jan 02 22:03:47 2003
This is not a detailed enough Log to be proof of anything, but given for the base information to make of as you will
-----signature-----
Mehlan, Former Dictator of the Pendragon Midgard Alliance
and Former member of the Mythics Internal Tester Forums.
"If the Pend players had "hijacked" the server things would be tested and the server wouldnt be the ghost town that mythic now has. "
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GroDaTroll
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Jan '02
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Date Posted:
1/2/03 10:26pm
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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....and on another note.
NetSpider, I notice you have, for all intents and purposes, recreated this thread 4 or more times now. In fact, I provide a couple quotes from some of them...
""Enough to kill over 35 fully buffed tanks. This is what an Animist can do. This is what 10 of their Fire and Forget pets can do."
"Ok, so you are arguing that if an animist is left alone for 30 second, they should be able to kill 35 fully buffed tanks? "
"yes they can. I know they can. It costs 10 power to cast the lowest level pet, with a casting time of 5 seconds. My 50 runemaster with Serenity 2 and no power regen buff can cast the lowest level AoEDD on keep doors almost indefinetly with MCL. That spell is 8 power with a 3 second casting time. They would have no probelm keeping up 41 pets for as long as they wanted. "
"If you have 41 pets on the wall, each with the same HP of your higest pet, that could be somewhat difficult to deal with. Considering that if it should take you 2 minutes to kill all the pets, there is already a whole new set of pets up."
"Lets just say for sake of argument that they can keep up 20 pets with these things. 20 X 179damage = 3580 Damage every 3 seconds. Odds are that most of them will chose the same target."
I'm glad to see your SLOWLY reducing the number of 'pets' that the animist is able to maintain.
...in parting I leave this last set.
A quote from Bre_rawr in one of Netspiders MANY posts griping about Animists.
"[mod] Feel free to repost with actual facts, and not assumptions. "-Bre
...and the Title of that particular Topic "Topic: Are Animists a sign of the end of DAOC? "
...don't you just love the Melodrama...
-----signature-----
Mehlan, Former Dictator of the Pendragon Midgard Alliance
and Former member of the Mythics Internal Tester Forums.
"If the Pend players had "hijacked" the server things would be tested and the server wouldnt be the ghost town that mythic now has. "
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GroDaTroll
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Date Posted:
1/2/03 10:49pm
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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Misc Notes from my log:
The FnF Turret:
Casts every 4 seconds
In 24 Seconds 386 pt damage.
Avg Damage 64.33 pts
Potential Total: 1920 (avg)
4 Turrets: 7680 Avg Potential.
Now the fun part.. Divide the damage by
the number of targets. Take that number and figure out the damage pet hit. Compare that to a DoT Or AoE which does the opposite, Same damage per target, but the more targets within the radius=more damage.
Nice damage yes, but I don't see it all that overpowering considering the limitations of the class. If they were mobile, used less power that might be another matter...
Now I have not tried to do the math yet, but considering I am at 1/2 mark to 50. I don't see the average damage increasing to 200pts per hit by the FnF turret within 25 levels. I see potential for some hits that high, but definitly not the average.
BUT, as I said myself...the log was not detailed enough to prove anything. A sample base of 100 or 1000 attacks would probably be better. If someone has a healer that is willing to join up and help me reduce downtime I'll try to get a log with considerably more hits following the format I used above.
-----signature-----
Mehlan, Former Dictator of the Pendragon Midgard Alliance
and Former member of the Mythics Internal Tester Forums.
"If the Pend players had "hijacked" the server things would be tested and the server wouldnt be the ghost town that mythic now has. "
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{old}Hibchanter
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Dec '01
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Date Posted:
1/2/03 11:12pm
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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Just an FYI for all you non animist. If even one of our pets is firing, we are in battle. We can not use MCL, we can not regain endurance, and we regain mana at a painfully slow rate even with mana 6.
5 FnF nuking pets is the best an animist can hope to get out. Then, for 2 mins he can not regain mana, really cant do a thing.
In addition i see all these calculations of damage based on an even con nuker. Remeber, our pets are alot lower level. Right now at level 42 my pets are level 36, so 50s resist the nukes outright quite frequently.
I think all the Animist are overpowered talk will subside once the LoS patch goes live. Once it does lets see how overpowered animist really are.
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w0oD
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Date Posted:
1/2/03 11:22pm
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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i was gonna point out about the original psoters rant but hey he cant eevn do his homework right and thinks we get a AoE grp heal which in reality is a pet heal and its a bomber.... so its no point trying to tell him hes wrong, he doesnt believe it, he wont believe it and at the rate his posting hes shouting at the top of his voice pretending not to listen..
why bother..
-----signature-----
dood we were outnumbered by hibs 40 to 2 and we still killed both of them! Go Albs  Bloody - BlackRock Horde
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vn_seros
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 12:08am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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Some of these braniacs obviously haven't tried to take keeps with animists inside, or defend with animists outside.
Thank goodness maternity leave for mythic's one capable programmer should be over in like 5 weeks and this can be resolved! =p
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Netspider
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 1:51am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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GroDaTroll,
Please. You really should refrain from quoting me out of context. It is simply coming down to personal attacks on me now. Which is not uncommon when you run out of substantive arguments. You know the Animist is massivly overpowered, but because you play one, you don't want it nerfed. As requested here is a log of a fight with a Animist. I am a Level 50 Shadowblade, fully buffed by my 49 Shaman who has 44 Augmentation. At this time we hold all 3 strength relics. In this case, I attacked the Animist while he was still casting his mushrooms, and he only had 5 up. At one point it was reported by a Shadowblade that he had 12 up.
[00:30:14] You prepare to perform a Perforate Artery!
[00:30:14] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly. (+844)
[00:30:14] You attack Shrooms with your axe and hit for 662 (-101) damage!
[00:30:14] Shrooms is poisoned!
[00:30:15] You hit Shrooms for 34 damage!
[00:30:15] You hit Shrooms for 19 extra damage!
[00:30:15] You attack Shrooms with your axe and hit for 87 (-14) damage!
[00:30:15] Shrooms is diseased!
[00:30:15] You hit Shrooms for 8 extra damage!
[00:30:15] You are no longer hidden!
[00:30:15] Shrooms is bleeding!
[00:30:15] You hit Shrooms for 3 damage!
[00:30:16] @@The Ranger says, "We're are under siege! Lay waste to those that would destroy Hibernia!"
[00:30:16] You prepare to perform a Creeping Death!
[00:30:16] Shrooms casts a spell!
[00:30:16] @@[Alliance] Notin: "we at blend now"
[00:30:16] The Guardian hits your arm for 144 (-14) damage!
[00:30:16] You hit Guardian for 9 extra damage!
[00:30:16] You miss!
[00:30:16] Your strike was absorbed by a magical barrier!
[00:30:16] You miss!
[00:30:17] Jelinar attacks you with her dagger!
[00:30:17] You evade Jelinar's attack!
[00:30:17] You are hit for 215 damage.
[00:30:17] You are hit for 194 damage.
[00:30:18] You are hit for 187 damage.
[00:30:18] You are hit for 176 damage.
[00:30:18] Shrooms is poisoned!
[00:30:18] You hit Shrooms for 35 damage!
[00:30:18] @@[Chat] Kasper: "dark wait for guards to be pulled then we can atack"
[00:30:18] You are hit for 199 damage.
[00:30:18] You attack Shrooms with your axe and hit for 164 (-20) damage!
[00:30:18] You hit Shrooms for 15 extra damage!
[00:30:18] You attack Shrooms with your axe and hit for 87 (-13) damage!
[00:30:18] You hit for 34 (-25) damage!
[00:30:18] You hit Shrooms for 10 extra damage!
[00:30:19] You prepare to perform a Comeback!
[00:30:19] You are now preparing to perform a Doublefrost style as a backup for Comeback!
[00:30:19] Jelinar attacks you with her dagger!
[00:30:19] You are hit for 144 damage.
[00:30:19] Jelinar does 27 extra damage to you!
[00:30:19] You are hit for 27 damage.
[00:30:19] You hit Jelinar for 2 extra damage!
[00:30:19] Jelinar attacks you with her dagger!
[00:30:19] You are hit for 123 damage.
[00:30:19] Jelinar does 28 extra damage to you!
[00:30:19] You are hit for 28 damage.
[00:30:19] You hit Jelinar for 4 extra damage!
[00:30:20] Jelinar casts a spell!
[00:30:20] You are hit for 229 damage.
[00:30:20] Shrooms is bleeding!
[00:30:20] You hit Shrooms for 3 damage!
[00:30:20] You have already selected your styles for this round!
[00:30:20] Siskuz casts a spell!
[00:30:20] You are hit for 320 damage.
[00:30:20] Darkstride was just killed by Siskuz!
[00:30:20] The fungus falls from your armor.
[00:30:20] Your Dexterity has decreased.
[00:30:20] Your Quickness has decreased.
[00:30:20] Your Strength has decreased.
[00:30:20] Your Constitution has decreased.
[00:30:20] Your hits have decreased.
[00:30:20] Your Dexterity has decreased.
[00:30:20] Your strength returns to normal.
[00:30:20] Your Strength has decreased.
[00:30:20] Your Constitution has decreased.
[00:30:20] Your hits have decreased.
[00:30:20] Your Heat resistance has decreased.
[00:30:20] Your Cold resistance has decreased.
[00:30:20] Your weapon returns to normal.
[00:30:20] Your Matter resistance has decreased.
[00:30:20] You have died. Type /release to return to your last bind point.
[00:30:20] You died fighting for your realm and lose no experience!
[00:30:21] You can't enter combat mode while lying down!
[00:30:21] You can't enter combat mode while lying down!
[00:30:22] @@[Chat] Graal: "Anyone have room for a shaman and skald?"
[00:30:24] Aura casts a spell!
[00:30:24] Shrooms is bleeding!
[00:30:26] Shrooms laughs at you!
[00:30:26] Aura casts a spell!
[00:30:26] Shrooms is poisoned!
[00:30:27] Shrooms laughs at you!
[00:30:28] Shrooms laughs at you!
[00:30:28] Shrooms laughs at you!
[00:30:28] Shrooms laughs at you!
[00:30:29] Shrooms laughs at you!
[00:30:30] Shrooms is bleeding!
Notice the time from when I did my PA, and when I started taking damage from the animist pets. It was 3 seconds, just as the spell delves for. Notice that each one was doing over 179 damage in almost all cases. Total damage from 5 mushrooms 971 damage. If Siskuz hadn't killed me, the mushrooms were about to land another round. The problem is the damage, but it is also the fact that anyone playing against Hiberina, isn't playing against other people any more. They are playing against the computer. You cast your turrets down, and then they select a target, and start blasting. If I had waited for him to finish casting his turrets, I would have been killed in exactly 3 seconds after my PA, every time, with the flawless precision that only a computer can provide.
Darkstride - Bedevere
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Cucaelen
collection | wishlist
Posts:
8,950
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Dec '01
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 2:05am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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Geesh, why has anyone (myself included) bothered feeding this troll for pages on end?
A turret is a stationary thing that dies in 2m.
A turret has 1000 range, inferior to every caster and archer in the game.
So if you don't want to wait the 2m for it to die, it can safely be killed from distance. I assure you the Animist probably would have been better off casting the power spent on a turret as lifetaps.
Its attack is random between all the targets it has in range. This means that any scenario in which someone theorizes a pet dishing out 7160 (or whatever) amount of damage has to factor in that it will be spread amongst all the targets that were in its view. If you are in a zerg of N people the odds of you being attacked twice in a row by a given turret is 1/N^2. So 5 people in range means a 1 in 25 chance of the turret attacking you twice. 10 people is 1 in 100. 24 people is 1 in 576. While more turrets will increase your odds of being hit, the fall off factor remains--more people decreases the liklihood of any suffering repeated hits.
Animists have a host of other problems, which if Netspidr pulled his head out of his a#$ and bothered to do some checking in on (say on the Animist's boards at animist.myikonboard.com) he'd realize make the class one of the weakest spellcasting classes in the game.
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Tumael
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 2:10am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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Hey, now we know the reason Netspidr is whining. He has no Body resist and his shaman buffbot can only cast matter/heat/cold. Get a Healer buffbot, then, bud. I'm sorry to break it to you but that's the EXACT same damage (in fact more) than is done to a level 50 bard with 3% body resist by a level 50 animist turret. Some of that is also the controlled turret. With Body resist chant up and Body at 23%, the minimum these pets would hit for is a whopping 101 and the maximum being 130-140.
Soloers like you ruin the game.
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Netspider
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 2:27am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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"A turret is a stationary thing that dies in 2m."
I consider it being stationary to be an advantage in a keep defence/offence situation.
"A turret has 1000 range, inferior to every caster and archer in the game."
When attacking a keep, you have no choice but to come within 1000 range to get LoS, so this is not a disadvantage in a keep situation.
"So if you don't want to wait the 2m for it to die, it can safely be killed from distance. I assure you the Animist probably would have been better off casting the power spent on a turret as lifetaps."
The animist will simply replenish the turrets. 2m duration means nothing, since he will continuously replace them. I agree that the pet is a better use of power than the lifetap. That whole argument was a tangent, because someone was saying I wasn't considering everything.
"Its attack is random between all the targets it has in range. This means that any scenario in which someone theorizes a pet dishing out 7160 (or whatever) amount of damage has to factor in that it will be spread amongst all the targets that were in its view. If you are in a zerg of N people the odds of you being attacked twice in a row by a given turret is 1/N^2. So 5 people in range means a 1 in 25 chance of the turret attacking you twice. 10 people is 1 in 100. 24 people is 1 in 576. While more turrets will increase your odds of being hit, the fall off factor remains--more people decreases the liklihood of any suffering repeated hits."
I think you need to have someone who knows how to do math check your figures over. It defies common sense that if a turret has 10 targets to chose from, that there is a 1 in 100 chance that it will chose you. The more people there are, the more lag there is. The more lag there is, the less effective PC's become. Turrets are not affected by lag, and only contribute to it, due to their disproporsionate numbers. Your counterargument assumes that there is only one Animist. The more people there are, the more Animists there will be. My point is that one animist is equal to up to 10 of any other class, in terms of Damage vs Power expended. Not to mention the fact that you no longer are playing against another person, but against a computer. Spreading out the damage is probably worse. I quit playing my 51 Runemaster, because of the existance of Animists. I can not compete with animists. So I now play the only class that has any chance against this class, a Shadowblade.
"Animists have a host of other problems, which if Netspidr pulled his head out of his a#$ and bothered to do some checking in on (say on the Animist's boards at animist.myikonboard.com) he'd realize make the class one of the weakest spellcasting classes in the game."
I have played an Animist. I know exactly what they can do. To argue that they are one of the weekest casting classes is just rediculous.
Darkstride - Bedevere
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Netspider
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1/3/03 2:31am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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"Soloers like you ruin the game."
I only play an assasin because I can no longer play my Runemaster, with the existance of Animists, therefor Animists have ruined the game for you.
Darkstride - Bedevere
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GroDaTroll
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 5:41am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
- Date Edited:
1/3/03 5:45am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
GroDaTroll
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Netspider,
None of those 'quotes' were taken out of context. All anyone has to do is go look at your other threads to see that. Bre-Rawr himself locked your threads and told you to use facts NOT assumptions.
Now in your log, I see you take damage from
4 turrets, 1 Pet, 3 players & a guard, possible more. (I don't have the time to crawl through your log to check it all yet)
a FAR cry from the "10" turrets you keep insisting that Animsts can/will keep up continiously. Now, you perfed the animist...that also means (as you should know)you have now the complete and undivided attention of every pet/turret the animist had out...compliments of the pet code. You had no problem approaching the Animist stealthed through his garden did you...another balancing factor.
Now, you are right that the Animist has the advantage in a keep/relic situation. You're right...however that advantage is the same thing that is his weakness in an Open field, or an aear near a mob/mobs.
An animist is the equivalent of 10 players huh. This is based on your assumtpion that an animist can keep out 10 turrets indefinitly... You still have yet to prove this. HOWEVER, you are correct...in that for 2 minutes an animist can provide several 'bodies' to artificialy increase the number of 'defenders/attackers' you face. Midgards Bone-Dancer provides 3 of the same thing, and virtualy every class that can provide a pet does this. The difference the animist can someone more than the 3 and they only live for 2 minutes. Which brings us back the the advantage/disadvantage thing again.
You say you cannot play your RM because of the animist. Yet...isn't a RM one of the classes with <gasp> nearsight. A spell that would reduce the effective range of the pet to approx 500 units as opposed to 1000?
Now as for me? Lol, I play a HUNTER as my main. It would be in my interest to see Animists nerfed. I played one, to take a break from the solo-grind. I DO NOT think ANY class should be weakend/nerfed without proper testing being done.
Now LoS is obviosuly an issue, and as such, it is being addressed.
YOU however want the class castrated before we know exactly how LoS affects the class and how they will be once some of the glaring bugs with the class are addressed.
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Mehlan, Former Dictator of the Pendragon Midgard Alliance
and Former member of the Mythics Internal Tester Forums.
"If the Pend players had "hijacked" the server things would be tested and the server wouldnt be the ghost town that mythic now has. "
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Iuz_deathbringer
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 6:13am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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Why shall Hibernia have a far far greater advantage that the 2 other realms have not? are they already too weak in keepdefence/offence and needed something that increased their power drastically which poor albs or strong midgard cannot compete with?
Was hibernia really too weak initially?
I foresaw this, and I experienced hibs placing 10 turrest infront of the gate, with 1 elf and 1 ram.
Turrets killed everyone that was on the first half part of the keep (divide courtyard in 2, 1 = center of courtyard and towards the doors, and 2 = center of the courtyard and the entrance to the lord.
While the power of an animist justify it since he is static, it dont justify the major inbalance albs and hibs met when trying to defend or offend against hibernia.
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Einherjar, 60 Rogue, CL of WKoE -- Shadowmoon(europe) http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?112269 50 Berzerkur (zerker, Killerspecc), MLF, NW-crew 50 Spiritmaster(49.22.5), MLF, Member of Norwegian Wood's wreckingcrew.
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Iuz_deathbringer
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 6:17am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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correction, albs and Mids against Hibernia
I know its a los-problem, but I noticed something else..
These 10 turrest represents 10 casters on permanent MoC and mana for 2 minutes....and they dont even need 1000 range in keep offence since the range from the top of the battlement and down are far under 1000...
We all agree that in Keepdefence/offence these turrets presents a factor that make hibs far far more lethal than before, yes?
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Einherjar, 60 Rogue, CL of WKoE -- Shadowmoon(europe) http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?112269 50 Berzerkur (zerker, Killerspecc), MLF, NW-crew 50 Spiritmaster(49.22.5), MLF, Member of Norwegian Wood's wreckingcrew.
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Viikinki.Veturi
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 6:18am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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I don't really want to join the bunch of flames here but I will say that I can foresee (or think I can) 3-4 animists in keep courtyard completely stopping a charge into the keep afte rthe doors have fell.
Also I'd think they're pretty formidable in stopping milefort rushes.
Apart from those (and those yet wait to be witnessed by me) the class just might be fine:)
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Thron1
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 6:25am
Subject:
geesh you really should NOT have posted that log netspider
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it shows you are an idiot..
You run INTO a turret patch, solo, with guards around, AND YOU EXPECT TO LIVE!!!
Here is a thought, run into a group of 5 tanks and smack one, tell me if you live.
Run into a group of 5 casters, hit one, tell me if you live...
running into a group of 5 ANYBODY, would kill a soloist...
From that log you posted, I would say animist actually need a samage INCREASE. The fact they you attacked the animist, drew a full attack from the pets without dying while STILL managing to keep attacking is just wrong. From your log its clear that 2 assasins would have easily killed the animist and all their pets.
Yep, I would say you have proven that animist need a serious boost in damage output to offset the fact that you need to walk into their range..
A solo player walking into a prepared animist's turret farm should fall over dead before touching the animist.
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GroDaTroll
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 7:50am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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Iuz,
Why post yet another example of a LoS issue? We know it is being addressed. I have seen the LoS changes in action on Pendragon...they work. I'm slowly testin what I can...strangely no volunteers ahve stepped forward yet.
Net like going on about the 'computer' controlled turrets... yet the Necro & BD pet's are also computer controlled. Each is a unique danger/problem in it's own right, in a Keep/Relic assault/defense situation.
-----signature-----
Mehlan, Former Dictator of the Pendragon Midgard Alliance
and Former member of the Mythics Internal Tester Forums.
"If the Pend players had "hijacked" the server things would be tested and the server wouldnt be the ghost town that mythic now has. "
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Netspider
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 10:33am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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"None of those 'quotes' were taken out of context. All anyone has to do is go look at your other threads to see that. Bre-Rawr himself locked your threads and told you to use facts NOT assumptions."
Every one of those is taken out of context. I invite everyone, including you to go actually read the threads of which you speak, as clearly you have not.
"Now in your log, I see you take damage from
4 turrets, 1 Pet, 3 players & a guard, possible more. (I don't have the time to crawl through your log to check it all yet)
a FAR cry from the "10" turrets you keep insisting that Animsts can/will keep up continiously. Now, you perfed the animist...that also means (as you should know)you have now the complete and undivided attention of every pet/turret the animist had out...compliments of the pet code. You had no problem approaching the Animist stealthed through his garden did you...another balancing factor. "
It was reported at one time that he had 12 turrets. He was in the middle of casting more turrets when I did my PA. Although I can not level an Animist to 50, to test it, I will see if I can some how simulate it with characters on Pendragon, since power is power, and spells are spells. I might be able to use a duel for keeping him in combat, but that removes all buffs, so I will see what I can do about testing that. I have already shown that my calculations were accurate on the damage. I will see if I can do that with power consumption.
"Now, you are right that the Animist has the advantage in a keep/relic situation. You're right...however that advantage is the same thing that is his weakness in an Open field, or an aear near a mob/mobs."
Why don't you sit and contemplate what you just said for a moment. I propose that the only RvR of consiquence takes place at keeps and relics. Hibernia already had dominance in relics, so why would they give them more power in this area.
"An animist is the equivalent of 10 players huh. This is based on your assumtpion that an animist can keep out 10 turrets indefinitly..."
I see you accept my argument that if the animist has 10 pets, he is equal to 10 times any other player. Even if you don't beleive that the animist can keep up 10 pets, it is clear from my log that they can keep up 5 without any problem. By that logic you think they are only equal to 5 of any other class. Is this acceptable to you?
"You say you cannot play your RM because of the animist. Yet...isn't a RM one of the classes with <gasp> nearsight. A spell that would reduce the effective range of the pet to approx 500 units as opposed to 1000?"
Hmmm, well perhaps if I find an animist alone with a field of turrets, that might work. However I have found that they are often not alone. As stated before, in any RvR of consiquence (i.e. at keeps or relics) you have to be within 1000 range to have LOS on the pets.
Darkstride - Bedevere
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Netspider
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 10:44am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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"Why post yet another example of a LoS issue? We know it is being addressed. I have seen the LoS changes in action on Pendragon...they work. I'm slowly testin what I can...strangely no volunteers ahve stepped forward yet."
Perhaps you failed to actually read my posts. I said I would be happy to test things with you, if you are a 50 Animist. If you aren't, get busy, because any other tests will not be relevent.
"Net like going on about the 'computer' controlled turrets... yet the Necro & BD pet's are also computer controlled."
That is such a crock. It is such a dishonest statement, I can't beleive you would put it on my screen. Necros and Bonedancers have nothing like FAF Pets.
Darkstride - Bedevere
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GroDaTroll
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 11:23am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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No, the ONLY thing I concur is that the Animist was able to put out 5 pets. That he was putting out more pets is entirely conjecture.
Second, again he had out 5 pets... 1 controlled, 4 FnF turrets. There was no 6th or more in the log. Your log ccannot show the animist putting more out, how much mana he had or anything else. Until combat had ended, that animist will will regen little to NO mana. Maintaining steady supply of pets is completely different from summoning them. This is an arguement you continue to try to maintain but never prove, or even come close to.
"I see you accept my argument that if the animist has 10 pets, he is equal to 10 times any other player. Even if you don't beleive that the animist can keep up 10 pets, it is clear from my log that they can keep up 5 without any problem. By that logic you think they are only equal to 5 of any other class. Is this acceptable to you? "
I will repeat myself to you, it is proven here he can SUMMON 5 pets... maintaing that number is QUITE a different story..and as I stated 1 pet =1 a player of EQUAL level for 2 MINUTES MAX. Players don't 'expire' from time limites... the Turrets do. Further the regen rate does NOT match the cost to cast when there is combat.
"Hmmm, well perhaps if I find an animist alone with a field of turrets, that might work. However I have found that they are often not alone. As stated before, in any RvR of consiquence (i.e. at keeps or relics) you have to be within 1000 range to have LOS on the pets. " Their not alone, then you're not alone... someone else accused you of a 'solo-er'. Your commenart here supports that argument.
...and I definitly read your posts that I copied those quotes from. I've challenged you on several of them. Challenges you have yet to answer. As for needing a lvl 50 animist to test...hardly. A lvl 50 Animist is NOT needed to test LoS on Pendragon. Power VS Cost to cast does not change so greatly that adquate comparisions cannot be made in regards to the number of pets that can be summoned either.
Heck according to your OWN claims, the FnF turrets are hitting players for 200 pts. Yet you recieved 1 hit from the turrets OVER 200pts, the other 3 were below that mark.....the AVG was is 193 and that is against an obscenely LOW body resist. by the comparision form someone else your effective body% was 3, 1 pt above that of my lvl 26 SB.
""Net like going on about the 'computer' controlled turrets... yet the Necro & BD pet's are also computer controlled.
That is such a crock. It is such a dishonest statement, I can't beleive you would put it on my screen. Necros and Bonedancers have nothing like FAF Pets. "
NO...one of your issue with animist is that the FnF's are controlled by the computer and thus do not suffer lag. To a degree all pets are the same. I did state that we DO NOT KNOW how effective these otehr two classes will come to be in Keep/Relic defense. There has NOT been enough time to properly see.
..and you do NOT have to be within 1000 Units to ahve LoS on the turrets. If your spell has a range of 2300 units then by ghod you can cast on it at that range. what might affect this is WHERE the turret is palced on the terrain which IS a different matter.
Let me also ask you WHAT is the range on SIEGE Weapons? Did you ever think there MIGHT be a reason to start using these things now? Aside from RAMS?
The truth of the matter is YOU DO NOT LIKE THE CLASS and have made it your personal mission to try to have them nerfed as fast as possible with minimal testing assessment, if any. You're history of threads on this subject alone is proof.
-----signature-----
Mehlan, Former Dictator of the Pendragon Midgard Alliance
and Former member of the Mythics Internal Tester Forums.
"If the Pend players had "hijacked" the server things would be tested and the server wouldnt be the ghost town that mythic now has. "
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{old}Enis1
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 11:27am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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The animist does mark the beginning of the end for DAOC.
When mythic gives an already overpowered realm (hib) a class with the damage output of 30 real pleaers, it shouts imballance.
Come on mythic what were you thinking? Hibs already had the best class in the game, enchanter. Now you give them an even better one?
The animist justs casts a bunch (10 or more) of cheap power cost pets then sits back and lets the insane damage roll.
How long would it take another caster to do the damage of 10 animist pets? A half hour, an hour, maybe longer?
As usual mythic never tested this class good enough to balance it. Thus adding the most overpowered class to the most overpowered realm. Group purge, stun on casters, spearoes, pbt on a healer/tank hybrid, this list can go on and on.
The logs are there that prove the animist is far to powerful. The only reason you ignore it is because you like having yet another class with the insta-kill button. But this insta-kill button isn't just for 1 opponent it's for 30.
Things like this just show that mythic has no idea how to balance anything.
With the new mmorpgs comming out this year, camelot will be hert badly, and finally finished off by EQ II.
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GroDaTroll
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 11:36am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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"The logs are there that prove the animist is far to powerful. The only reason you ignore it is because you like having yet another class with the insta-kill button. But this insta-kill button isn't just for 1 opponent it's for 30. "
Then by ghod, for once someone show these logs...
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Mehlan, Former Dictator of the Pendragon Midgard Alliance
and Former member of the Mythics Internal Tester Forums.
"If the Pend players had "hijacked" the server things would be tested and the server wouldnt be the ghost town that mythic now has. "
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Castyn
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Date Posted:
1/3/03 11:48am
Subject:
RE: Animist Damage Output/Power
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Nothing quite as preciously stupid as pre-emptive nerf calls.
The BG's are not 'RvR'. Play a god damn animist then come here and whine your ass off, until then get over it and lets actually SEE (holy crap you mean we have to wait to bitch and cry!?) how animists affect the battlefield in high level RvR. Having played an animist I can't actually believe how stupid some of these posts have been.
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Castyn - 61 Bright Wizard
Castyn - 11L1 Mentalist of Percival
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