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November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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{old}Pilum
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Dec '01
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Date Posted:
11/21/03 6:24am
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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well, Mercs and BMs can both spec shield but neither of them can get mastery of blocking... If Zerks did get specable shield, I doubt they would get MoB to go along with it.
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Svartmetall
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Date Posted:
11/21/03 10:13am
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
- Date Edited:
11/21/03 10:14am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Svartmetall
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Well, instead of Shield spec for Zerks ('cos I STILL don't think it fits the DAOC role of the class, notwithstanding the historical facts about Berserkers using shields), how about giving the class a specifically ANTI-Shield skill called something like Overwhelm?
On a timer, gives +to hit bonus against targetted blocking enemies for a small period of time...?
Maybe something to think about.
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Svartmetall the Warrior, Jagdpanzer the 2H Savage, Myrkskog the Berserker...
...and lots of other toons on Gaheris.
Taking a break from WAR, but will go back some day.
Probably when they fix 2H Chosen.
*witty comment about how much WoW sucks*
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a232176
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Date Posted:
11/21/03 10:50am
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
- Date Edited:
11/21/03 10:51am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
a232176
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Or how about when you Vendo you lose all defense, but so does your target.
No being blocked, parried, or evaded while in vendo.
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Active on classic server, Hib Lamorak 11/05 to Current
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Cyrtophora
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Date Posted:
11/21/03 6:04pm
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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Shield for Berserkers is totally LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL imho.  A Berserker does NOT use a shield FFS! If you want a shield become a Warrior.
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DAoC - Avalon - Midgard - Götterdämmerung
Morglum Knochenbrecher - Berserker rr7+
Kazadra - Healer rr6+ // Vagn - Warrior rr4+
Cyrtophora - SB rr4+ // Ratatoesk - BD rr3+ // Yaiza - Hunter rr4+
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{old}Pilum
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Date Posted:
11/21/03 7:27pm
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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I might respec to 50 sword/shield and 28 parry if they let us. just think: slam or brutalize, then a few vendoed ragnaroks... ow?
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Akza
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Date Posted:
11/21/03 8:11pm
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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"I really just havent seen an argument as to why the 'Zerk should get Flurry other than "Mercs and BM's have it!" -wyrd
wow doesnt this sound familiar my fellow berserkers?
Why should zerk get shitty damage just because mercs and BMs have it!
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·»Teydis ¤ Igraine«· ·»»·“ ¤Herra¤ “·««· http://www.backloggery.com/teylix
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GopherSlayer
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Date Posted:
11/21/03 10:14pm
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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sheilds for zerkers would be a good thing cause it would make leftaxe a viable choice for a spec instead of a forced choice.
being forced to spec a cookie cutter spec has always been an issue to me.
anybody that says zerkers with sheilds arent zerkers has a weak argument considering that mythics version of a zerker is pitiful to say the very least.
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gopher
lvl 50 RR7 zerker, gawaine <retired>
current resident of planetside.
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tracyfearson
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Date Posted:
11/24/03 10:12am
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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Well,
I see Wyrd has come here to offer his normal "wisdom" of half truths.
Much of what has been said in this thread is incorrect because players dont understand the mechanics and some people (Wyrd) only tell part of the story.
Allow me to rectify some issues on a point by point basis, quotes are Wyrd's comments:
Sorry, have to point out the errors here and some very correct and valid points that many just dont get or want to acknowledge...
"1) Rear chain is extremely good for damage and using the Hammer or Axe side positional styles make up for the lack of a side positional in the LA line."
Nailed it. Most definitely correct
"2) A zerker in frenzy is still the highest single target, damage-output player in the game, bar none. I use frenzy in almost every fight I am in, but its not like you can just hit the button as you are charging. Pick your targets wisely in addition to learning the right time to use the ability and you dont have to worry about it being negated."
IMHO from experienece, PBAOE casters output more DPS on a single target then anyone in the game.
"3) LA styles have always had the same END costs as comparable styles. The reason zerks go through END so fast is two-fold.
A - Most Zerkers swing a 4.2 Spd weapon which takes a lot of END.
B - LA has an artificial haste which allows you to swing at a faster rate but at the same damage and END cost as swinging slower. This is a strong advantage."
Actually, this has not always been the case. It is the case now.
"Overall?
Zerkers are still very powerful and add a lot to groups. There was an issue when Savages were overpowered, but now that they were brought down a bit, the Zerk once again fits in the mix fairly well. Will a Zerk outtank someone head to head? Probably not, but if you get around them to use your positionals (as a Light Tank should), you will kick out some massive damage."
Kinda correct. Will touch on this with some later comments.
"Things that should be looked into?
1) Positional Stun -- If you work as a group, this is not an issue, but I can imagine its a sore spot for the class as the zerk is one of the very few classes in the game who does not have a positional stun (Merc also does not)"
The problem is, with positional stuns other melee can peal off their casters and healer much more effectively then zerkers. You jump a chanter to keep him from casting. Ooops, that dirty hib tank hit you from behind, you are stunned. Now the chanter pbaoe you to death. Only shield tanks can do this in midgard. The savage stun is too short to really make a huge impact most times.
"2) Rage -- change to 25%-75% crit damage variance (or even 40%-60%), 1-99% is just too much of a swing"
Yes and no. I like the chance for a huge hit. Yeah the variance sucks a bit. Rather then tightening the band would suggest bell curving it so you still have a chance of a huge hit. i.e. I would rather see a small tweak such as rather then 1 to 99 crit, make the crit be the the sum of 10 random 1 to 10 determinations-1. This would give a range of 9 to 99 crits while most would be mid rang crits with a few rare ubber crits.
"Other than that, the class is doing pretty darn good."
Nope. again will felsh this out with his later comments.
"Thus... youre comparing:
1H + Style DPS
vs
1H * LA Penalty + 1H * LA Penalty + Style DPS
And
1H < (1H * LA Penalty + 1H * LA Penalty)
with even a 1 spec in LA, this comes out to 125% damage of a 1Handed in base damage... (barring the effects of LA WeapSkill, which only really affects SB's since Zerks typically cap, or come close to capping LA)"
The leftaxe weaponskill most definitely effects zerks as well. It limits the ability to go lower leftaxe and more parry. Thus, zerkers dont compete well with other light tanks 1 vs 1. More on this with Wyrd's later comments:)
"1) Reverse Backup style order... make it so you hit your anytime and then your conditional. This way you can wait to choose which conditional you want to hit, but not miss out on styling that round."
This i like.
"2) One Icon for the full Melee Chain. Thus, if I hit the Frosty Gaze Icon, it will make me cycle through Comeback and the Frosty Gaze. Yes, it dumbs down the game a slight bit, but with the real-estate restrictions on the action bar, we only have so many possible styles up at a time."
Also like this, switching quickbars has made me miss styles/use wrong styles many times.
"3) All style effects should be based on style difficulty rather than style level. Thus, longer duration stuns for harder styles (no 9-second stun on DragonFang)"
Should be based on style difficulty and level. Please compare dragonfang and aurora borealis. Sorry, but aurora was a betetr style before the change. The attack speed debuff won me many a duel, AB really adds/does nothing for berserkers. Now, if the process was aoe speed reduction, now that would be useful.
Gonna skip the healer use comments. As it is a matter of play styles and I dont know where he finds aug healers, they very rare on Tristan.
"Each weapon does 62.5% + Spec * 0.34
DW is 25% chance to offhand + Spec * 0.68
(Feel free to use the damage cap formula along with this to check for accuracy)"
"Thus, with equal spec and weapons, the damage is identical."
Not true at all. 50 weapon spec 20 CD/DW easily outperforms 50 weapon spec 20 leftaxe. The offhand damage range due to low spec cripples it.
"When you throw in to-hit rate, LA falls behind very slightly."
If you say so. From my experience, I miss less with my leftaxe then I do mainhand. Is small percentage but is slightly more even when using +to hit styles.
"However, when you throw in the Artificial Haste and Styling, LA comes out on top (even with the to-hit rate)."
No, it doesnt. Will go in depth with later comment.
"Thus, Base damage for LA and DW is essentially identical."
If full spec and same speed weapons this would be correct.
"The END costs are essentially identical."
Correct. Some dont want to believe it but it is true.
"LA styles are slightly higher damage than DW/CD styles (Dual Shadows being the only exception I can think of off the top of my head)."
Also correct.
"Sorry, Zerks do the most DPS of any of the light tanks in the game. LA does not suck. The zerker class is very useful and very powerful class in RvR."
Incorrect in real game situations. Will explain in detail with one of his later comments.
"The mechanics of LA make it simply superior to DW/CD. It just doesnt have the styles to make it disgustingly overpowered anymore. Now the styles are adding about the same or slightly more DPS than comparable styles for the same END cost (instead of double the DPS of comparable styles for the same END cost)."
Not correct at all. The 2 lines are basically equal if full specced in them and main weapon. Neither significantly outperforms the other.
"2) LA has more DPS than CD/DW. Sorry to burst your bubble, but youre just wrong. Feel free to call for a nerf for your own class, its your perogative."
Wrong. Earlier you say "Thus, with equal spec and weapons, the damage is identical."
Both statements cant be correct.
"Yes, if you look at just LA's right hand and CD/DW's right hand, the CD/DW will do more damage. Yes, if you just look at the damage of the offhand without considering the swing-rate, CD/DW will do more damage. However, over time, LA is far more consistent and yields higher DPS as a whole."
Incorrect. See, leftaxe does get a haste efefct every swing. CD/DW get the same haste effect when the offhand swings.
Now you might think that this makes the leftaxe haste effect superior. If you do, then you are mistaken. True, CD/DW will only get the haste effect 80% to 85% of the time. Now, look at the available weapons in the different realms. Slowest for mainhand in midgard that I am aware of is 4.2 delay. Albs and hibs now have 4.4 delay one handed weapons. Now, look at the delay of the offhand weapons available. Guess what? Albs and hibs have much faster 16.5 dps offhand weapons.
What does this mean? Lets look at an example:
4.4 main, 2.4 offhand = 3.2 speed when hasted, a 27% haste effect boosting DPS
4.2 main, 3.2 offhand = 3.7 speed when hasted, a 11.9% haste effect boosting DPS
Now, if you only get the first one 85% of the time but get the second 100% of the time, which would do more DPS?
I will let Wyrd mull that over and crunch it in his DPS spreadsheets:)
"Flurry, Im not sure I agree with. If you want to frontload your damage, pull out the 2-hander for one round then switch to LA. Thats essentially the same thing Flurry does for you."
Wrong. If you use a 2 hander you swing slower. Over time the dps of dual wielding is superior to 2 handed weapons. Does flurry reduce overall DPs over time? No, it does not. So the comparison isnt the same thing.
"I really just havent seen an argument as to why the 'Zerk should get Flurry other than "Mercs and BM's have it!". I think Flurry + 2Handed + LA would be a bit overpowered."
This is an opinion, not a fact. Other disagree. If base dps and style dps are essentially the same, how could adding flurry be overpowered?
Some further comments of my own.
With the current style available to my 50 axe/50 leftaxe/28 parry troll berzerker I am unable to do much in rvr. Why? Everyone in the game can run away from me and I cant hit them. This is due to style deficiencies in the spec lines. Albion and hibernia tanks have roots and stuns that inhibit running from them. The postional long stuns are great for pealing tanks with determination off your healers/shaman/runemaster/spirtmasters. Zerkers cannot fulfill this task with their weaponstyles.
in order to perform this task I have spent precious realm skill points on prevent flight. This allows me to damge people and they cannot run away but, it doesnt insta stun them so my casters can cast.
This is one of the root reason that berzerkers are lacking. They cant stun tanks off the support classes and they cant kill them fast enough to save the support classes.
Want to hear something really funny?
My sblade makes a better pealer then my prevent flight equipped berzerker. Why you ask? Garrotte works as a pealing style with its movement slowing effect.
You want zerks to be played more and be more fun? These are the tweaks I would suggest:
1. Add the hindered effect to doublefrost
2. Change aurora borealis back to the way it was
3. Give midgard faster left axes
4. Make leftaxe check mainhand weaponspec for damage range
5. Tweak the damage variance of fury. Would prefer to keep the big hits but bell curve it so it is more consistent.
6. Allow thrown weapons to be used (same delay and such) while moving.
Yep, minor changes and more might be needed but this would allow berzerkers to peal in rvr (without an 8 point realm skill), be a consistent damage dealer, hit the swing delay cap when a full aug healer isnt available (which is often) and have a ranged means of breaking speed spells and able to help damage SOS speeders.
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Draul lv 50 shadowblade RR 9
Gort lv 50 berzerker, Quait 50 valkyrie
Haag lv 50 shaman, Tirc lv 50 hunter
Odep lv 50 bonedancer, Real lv 50 runemaster
Jorumgand Tristan
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artemis_daoc
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Date Posted:
11/24/03 11:04am
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
- Date Edited:
11/24/03 11:20am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
artemis_daoc
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"Albs and hibs now have 4.4 delay one handed weapons. "
I don't know about hibs but albs don't have access to 4.4 delay 1handed weapons, at least not usable by mercs/infs.
The slowest is 4.1 delay bastard sword 16.2 dps craftable.
The slowest slash 16.5dps is 4.0, and for thrust it's 3.9, for crush it's something similar.
In sidi/dragon/legion drops, slowest is 3.6 spd.
In toa, slowest is 4.1spd (artifact).
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Luyce d'Swordmaster - Wild Clan - Monolith - Warhammer
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tracyfearson
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Date Posted:
11/24/03 11:26am
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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And i se artemis has made an appearance to show his lack of knowledge once again.
"I don't know about hibs but albs don't have access to 4.4 delay 1handed weapons, at least not usable by mercs/inf"
"In toa, slowest is 4.1spd (artifact)."
Check out this link. Shows golden spear artifact. It is 4.2 delay.
http://www.umbosinc.com/goldenspear.jpg
You have the 4.1 delay bane of battler slash weapon.
http://www.daocyellowpages.com/images/sshot000.jpg
The 4.4 delay weapon is a thruster. Called a harpoon, essentially a 1 handed spear. Hibs and albs get these, mids dont.
Check this link for picture:
http://horizons.dk/fuga/toa/items/whirling_obsidian_harpoon.jpg
If you want to discuss the drops or find out how to get them I suggest this thread:
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=60049268&replies=14
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Draul lv 50 shadowblade RR 9
Gort lv 50 berzerker, Quait 50 valkyrie
Haag lv 50 shaman, Tirc lv 50 hunter
Odep lv 50 bonedancer, Real lv 50 runemaster
Jorumgand Tristan
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artemis_daoc
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Date Posted:
11/24/03 12:25pm
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
- Date Edited:
11/24/03 12:42pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
artemis_daoc
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Anything in toa is available for all realms (as long as you have the spec option) so there is nothing in there realm specific.
I wouldn't call a rog generated MP drop in TOA as something to whine about, maybe there is a 5.0 spd rog 1hander too if you farm for a year. How many people will get lucky and how is this specific to alb?
The fact remains that there are no common weapons available in alb slower then 4.1 and certainly not 4.4.
The Golden spear fyi isn't usable by mercs/bm.
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Luyce d'Swordmaster - Wild Clan - Monolith - Warhammer
Vasagh, Dorf Healer - MLF
Avalonian Mercenary - DragonHeart - Galahad
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GurthStonefist
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Date Posted:
11/24/03 4:14pm
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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"Anything in toa is available for all realms (as long as you have the spec option) so there is nothing in there realm specific. "
Read what you said and then you will understand why midgard does not get it. No pierce spec melee, means no 4.4 speed weapon.
Hibs/Albs get. Mids do not.
Albs also have access to 6.0 2h weapons. Lucky them.
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tracyfearson
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Date Posted:
11/24/03 4:41pm
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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Artemis, according to the test leads, mythic has set different speed for drops in different lands.
The bows that drop for midgard are not as slow as the ones that drop for albion.
Same for 2 handed weapons.
You sir are the whiner.
I pointed out that the items are available and with faster lefthand useable ietms allow them to have the same/better haste effect then midgard does with leftaxe.
This is the state of the game. I provided the information to indicate the the simplified analysis of Wyrd was not sufficient.
Use the knowledge any way you chose.
Now, take a deep breath artemis and if you try really hard you can say "tracyfearson was correct and I was wrong once again".
You seem to have a condition where you try to refute/discredit anyon that posts that there are disadvantages to sblades vs other stealthers. That is fine. Unfortunately, when you get your facts wrong you try to discredit the messenger. That isnt just fine.
Of course it must be tiresome to come to these boards and try to prove me wrong and never being successful.
Perhaps one day, I will make an error. Unfortunately, you cant just make stuff up to refute facts. So, I guess you will never have that pleasure.
You follow along like most of your other posts.
First you say I am wrong.
I prove I am correct.
Then you try to dismiss it as a whine/irrelevant/fabricated.
maybe, after this time, you being wrong, yet again, you will just go away.
-----signature-----
Draul lv 50 shadowblade RR 9
Gort lv 50 berzerker, Quait 50 valkyrie
Haag lv 50 shaman, Tirc lv 50 hunter
Odep lv 50 bonedancer, Real lv 50 runemaster
Jorumgand Tristan
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artemis_daoc
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Date Posted:
11/24/03 4:46pm
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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"Read what you said and then you will understand why midgard does not get it. No pierce spec melee, means no 4.4 speed weapon."
There are no 4.4 spd melee weapons in albion for mercs. The thrust spec weapon he pointed to, is a ROG (randomly generated) item. You can have the same for any realm for any weapon type provided you get lucky with the random generator.
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Luyce d'Swordmaster - Wild Clan - Monolith - Warhammer
Vasagh, Dorf Healer - MLF
Avalonian Mercenary - DragonHeart - Galahad
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artemis_daoc
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Date Posted:
11/24/03 5:11pm
Subject:
RE: November (1.65) Berserker TL Report
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"The bows that drop for midgard are not as slow as the ones that drop for albion"
What does this haven to do with melee weapons for dual wielders? Bows work differently then melee weapons between merc/bm/berserkers. Scouts are meant to have slowest, Rangers in middle followed by hunters.
"Same for 2 handed weapons. "
Actually except for apoc sword (which is extremely rare), 2H swords are of similar speed across the realms, Celtic spears are slower followed by polearms the slowest.
"I pointed out that the items are available and with faster lefthand useable ietms allow them to have the same/better haste effect then midgard does with leftaxe. "
And that's where your whole argument is mute since you start it off based on false assumptions.
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