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Official Thread: Left Axe.
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Grilmath
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Mar '02
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Date Posted:
6/9/03 4:23pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
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I have only real game play observation. I don't have controled tests some of the SB's and Zerkers have done.
Real test 3 Groups of albs at wall, we had just dispatched 2-3 groups of mids and 2-3 groups of hibs long well fought battles.
Another group of mids arrives, granted all ALB RA's were down. But in this group were 2 zekers both useing 2 weapons.
Well they started by devastateing the 3 groups of ALbs the started with the casters and yes they did not one shot them they 2 shot most of the casters. This while each zerker had 2-3 tanks each chaseing them around. Other tanks were on the shaman who was srinting around in circles. THe alb groups clerics were being destroyed by the BD with more albs trying to cut the BD down.
ANyhow that mid group was extremly well balanced, and took down 3 times there numbers with out loseing one person.
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Life Truly is a bowl of cherries..
Learning how to deal with the pit's is what counts.
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Evil_Greven
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Date Posted:
6/9/03 7:28pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
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My God.
FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO INSIST THAT 1.50 DOUBLED LEFT AXE DAMAGE:
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=30455674&replies=701
READ THIS THREAD.
ENLIGHTEN YOURSELF.
And most of all, stop looking ignorant.
-Greven
-----signature-----
AC: 2days, EQ: 2 weeks, EQ2: 2 weeks, WoW: 2 weeks, SWG: 1 month, CoH: 1 month, UO: 1.5 years, DAoC:2.5 years ..Now what?
"Wow. Valks are gay." - Shocka, RR7 Eldritch /rofl
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Logan02134
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Date Posted:
6/9/03 11:18pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
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Bump. Not going anywhere.
-----signature-----
"There is no training, no skill, and no energy of force that can overcome the mind of a fool." - Chiun
"They don't pay me to hit hard. They pay me to loosen fillings." - Ronnie Lott
WoW - Human Rogue of the Dragon Lineage 
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Evil_Greven
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Date Posted:
6/9/03 11:30pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
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*builds a sign on the Dev Round Table which reads:*
"Beware of Tosen, Left Axe Threads!"
-Greven
-----signature-----
AC: 2days, EQ: 2 weeks, EQ2: 2 weeks, WoW: 2 weeks, SWG: 1 month, CoH: 1 month, UO: 1.5 years, DAoC:2.5 years ..Now what?
"Wow. Valks are gay." - Shocka, RR7 Eldritch /rofl
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{old}Procifica
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Date Posted:
6/9/03 11:35pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
- Date Edited:
6/9/03 11:36pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
{old}Procifica
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Greven, I never said that "LEFT AXE DAMAGE WAS DOUBLED".
I said that Left Axe STYLE damage was doubled by patch 1.50 (because growth rates were doubled).
Style damage and overall damage are two entirely different things.
The resulting overall damage increase varies by style growth rate.
From Patch 1.50:
All Left Axe styles which grow in damage as you train further in left axe have the amount they grow doubled. This is to balance out the fact that left axe damage is cut in half (because two weapons hit every round)
This is what put LA STYLE damage out of control.
Patch 1.49, 1.50, 1.61, 1.62, LA still does same damage it always has WITHOUT STYLES.
Edit: Style damage in ANY post I make refers to the EXTRA damage that a style puts onto regular base damage.
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Evil_Greven
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Date Posted:
6/9/03 11:36pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
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Procifica,
Read the thread.
They weren't ever doubled. Read the thread. SLIGHT increase to some of the lower-level styles and a DECREASE to Doublefrost is the widely reported result.
You are confusing two terms:
A. Mythic's definition of "Growth rate"
and
B. Waterman/Wyrd's definition of "Growth Rate"
-Greven
-----signature-----
AC: 2days, EQ: 2 weeks, EQ2: 2 weeks, WoW: 2 weeks, SWG: 1 month, CoH: 1 month, UO: 1.5 years, DAoC:2.5 years ..Now what?
"Wow. Valks are gay." - Shocka, RR7 Eldritch /rofl
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GurthStonefist
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Date Posted:
6/9/03 11:37pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
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"I said that Left Axe STYLE damage was doubled by patch 1.50 (because growth rates were doubled). "
Which is incorrect as those of us who played zerks at the time would know. A few of the styles were adjusted, certainly not doubled.
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60 Troll Shaman
60 Troll Rogue
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{old}Procifica
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Date Posted:
6/9/03 11:54pm
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
- Date Edited:
6/9/03 11:56pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
{old}Procifica
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Greven, growth rates for LA pre-1.62 were up close to 2.00 for some styles. No other style lines in the game had anywhere near that kind of growth.
Now, LA still has 4 styles over 1.00 growth rate. Only CS line has that many or more.
LA still will do more damage over time with styles than comparable CD/DW styles.
With regard to SB's, mythic needs to fix the left-hand weapon for them and Zerkers so its based off of Axe spec for damage instead of LA spec. Then the problem is solved.
Zerkers need the 50-99% crits back on Frenzy, and given flurry or have it removed from the game, then they are ok as well.
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Evil_Greven
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Date Posted:
6/10/03 12:01am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
- Date Edited:
6/10/03 12:03am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Evil_Greven
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Procifica, I posted this on page 4 of this thread. I'm quite familiar with the change, thanks.
http://pete.waterman.net/daoc/Dual-Wield.html
Style Name 1.61 1.62c Damage Reduced
--------------- ----- ----- --------------
Counter Slash 0.064 0.04 37.50%
Doubler 1.208 0.615 49.09%
Ravager 0.696 0.359 48.42%
Polar Light 1.76 0.898 48.98%
Snowblind 1.172 0.602 48.63%
Atrophy 1.284 0.673 47.59%
Frost Shadow 1.805 0.947 47.53%
Comeback 1.769 0.934 47.20%
Scathing Blade 1.872 1.006 46.26%
Decaying Rage 1.76 0.947 46.19%
Snowsquall 1.558 0.871 44.09%
Doublefrost 1.262 0.727 42.39%
Frosty Gaze 1.787 1.006 43.70%
Icy Brilliance 1.787 1.019 42.98%
Aurora Borealis 1.805 1.046 42.05%
This is for a Berserker. And, if I remember correctly, they increased the damage of the Snowsquall chain further.
So, that part will be even lower for Shadowblades.
The 4 styles above 1.00 are:
1. Scathing Blade, 3rd style in anytime chain.
2. Frosty Glaze, 2nd in evade chain.
3. Icy Brilliance, 2nd in rear-positional chain.
4. Aurora Borealis, 3rd in rear-positional chain.
Keep in mind, both Icy Brilliance & Aurora Borealis are only increased to that for Berserkers.
For Shadowblades, it's different.
EDIT:
What is your point anyway?
Are you saying that them decreasing the "growth rates" by over 40% is addressing what SUPPOSIDLY went in 1.50?
Your logic is flawed.
-Greven
-----signature-----
AC: 2days, EQ: 2 weeks, EQ2: 2 weeks, WoW: 2 weeks, SWG: 1 month, CoH: 1 month, UO: 1.5 years, DAoC:2.5 years ..Now what?
"Wow. Valks are gay." - Shocka, RR7 Eldritch /rofl
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{old}Procifica
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Date Posted:
6/10/03 12:04am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
- Date Edited:
6/10/03 12:06am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
{old}Procifica
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Do any other styles in non-LA lines get above 1.00 growth rates, besides CS styles? I don't believe so.
Again, the problem with SB's is that the off-hand damage variance is based on LA spec, instead of Axe spec. Fix this, and SB's will be fixed.
A reduction of 40% is still less than the Doubling they received in 1.50, is my point. LA style damage still is HIGHER than CD/DW style damage.
I wish CD or DW had a .727 growth rate anytime style, or even one that's above .50 growth rate.
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GurthStonefist
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Date Posted:
6/10/03 12:04am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
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"LA still will do more damage over time with styles than comparable CD/DW styles."
eh that is a lame arguement.
Well the problem is that the cd/dw styles suck, but that isn't a fair comparison because a merc or bm can just use his base weapon styles without nerfing his damage, a LA user takes a significant penalty to using a base style line because he is starting with reduced base damage (~85% maximum). CD/DW doesn't share this problem.
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{old}Procifica
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Date Posted:
6/10/03 12:08am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
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Quote: Well the problem is that the cd/dw styles suck, but that isn't a fair comparison because a merc or bm can just use his base weapon styles without nerfing his damage, a LA user takes a significant penalty to using a base style line because he is starting with reduced base damage (~85% maximum). CD/DW doesn't share this problem.
LA's second weapon swinging all the time makes up for it, since DW/CD second weapon may or may not swing. Hit/miss has nothing to do with it (before someone brings that up).
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tuppe
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Date Posted:
6/10/03 12:14am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
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i bring it up.
if laxe user miss 40% offhand, and same ammount from dw, laxe user suffer alott more from those what other dw:s.
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Valewalker TL: "ZERKERS ARE NOT GETTING MORE DAMAGE EVER AGAIN."
Valewalker TL: "You don't like it? Don't pay."
lvl 50 Bers/2xhealer/sham/bone/hunter/rm/warrior/Valk/2xsm/Sb
mid/pryd EU
lvl 50 RM Mid/Lancelot
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{old}Procifica
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Date Posted:
6/10/03 12:17am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
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Assume 100 swings.
LA second hand lands on 60 of them.
DW/CD second hand will land on 60% of those which actually swing the second weapon.
Explain how LA is hurting more.
If DW/CD swings say 50% of the time, then only 30% of the time will the DW/CD off-hand weapon land. LA as stated above, second hand weapon will land 60% of the time. LA second weapon though will do somewhat less damage when it lands.
This is of course, assuming your 40% miss rate holding true over time.
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GurthStonefist
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Date Posted:
6/10/03 12:20am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Left Axe.
- Date Edited:
6/10/03 12:24am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
GurthStonefist
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"LA's second weapon swinging all the time makes up for it, since DW/CD second weapon may or may not swing. Hit/miss has nothing to do with it (before someone brings that up). "
Yes and no. If you look at test results you will actually see that base unstyled damage favours CD/DW over LA. The reason is the offhand for a zerk and for a BM/Merc miss more often than the main hand. If both hit with the offhand only 50% of the swings a zerk is losing a higher % of his damage than a merc/bm is.
eg: Zerk and merc using same weapons
Merc/BM hits for 100 main 100 offhand
Zerk hits for 85 main 85 offhand
If the merc/bm swings his offhand 70% of the time (which he will roughly). They are equal both hitting for 170 pts each round.
However is they both miss with their offhand 50% of the time (just as an example) the bm/merc is doing 135 while the zerk has dropped to 127.5.
So yes hit/miss rate does have something to do with it, and the off hand has no style bonus so it is more likely to miss or be evaded, hurting the zerk more.
Obviously the shadowblade is punished badly as lower left axe spec is even worse, while cd/dw does nothing but add damage for infs/ns depending on how high they spec.
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60 Troll Rogue
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