...from the point of view of an assassin without See Hidden (not sure if it would influence my thought process on True Sight or not).

I'm never scared that some non-stealth class will successfully hunt me down; even with 45 effective stealth, I never had any non-stealther find me and I grow more secure with each Realm Rank. I am more cautious when I know another assassin is hunting for me, but in those situations it's going to come down to a toe-to-toe fight...assuming they even find me. I'm not scared of a toe-to-toe fight with any other assassin, at worst I figure it should be 50/50 if I'm fully buffed (actually better than that since we have STR relics right now).

True Sight is another matter. True Sight scares me. Since the resurgence of archers, I never feel completely safe within my stealth. I feel the need to stay away from the Alb Mile Gate, as it's a well-known assassin hot spot and archers will often use True Sight there. No matter where I am, True Sight keeps me on my toes. It ensures I move like I think an assassin should move.

I try to move where there is cover. I make sure I ALWAYS move after a kill (sometimes though, I take a bit of a risk with a kill and then get a little leary about moving and am, of course, leary about staying put).

I don't see True Sight as a problem. I see it as a challenge I need to overcome. In general, it isn't really all that hard to overcome, it just makes me think more "assassinish".


Thoughts? 50 Infiltrator
48 Shadowblade
50 Nightshade

Edited by: Brandyn Aquilius at: 8/28/03 6:35 am

Personally, I think the RAs that negate whole speclines should be taken out of the game. These include TS, SH, Determination, ect.

Yes, we have adapted our playing styles to these tools, but something that someone can by for no more than 10 realm spec points in most cases completely taking out of play an entire line is bad in my opinion.

TS as we all know destroys stealth lines for everyone, SH destroys stealth line for non assassins. Determination is even worse as it destroys spec lines on 1x classes that negate the only tools some classes/specs have (Bard Music, Sorc Mind, Healer Pac.)

However, back to the topic of TS.

Something else I dislike is that it gives access to see everyone by a class designed to be devastating at long range, and they do so. There is nearly no way for assassins to defend themselves from it. Archers who are discovered by SH still have a chance to get away with speed shouts for rangers (hunters have that as well don't they?) and the possibility of an anytime stun from a scout. Assassins when attacked have nearly no counters.

Now the availability of counters is what could be argued as the balancing part between an ever on passive, and an active on a 30 minute timer.

But personally, I would just assume both were taken out of the game.

The ability to see through stealth should not be given to a class with a ranged weapon. With See Hidden I still have to get to the archer before I can hit him, etc.

If they are to stay in the game, I'd like to see them the other way round. Archers get See Hidden and Assassins get True Sight. If you want TS in your group you'll have to get an Assassin and use him for the role that we have been saying is their main role all the time....the anti-assassin.

This change will mean that Archers will no longer be seen as the Assassin hunters, so both classes can start being developed in the correct direction again. (And if Mythic do that I'll sell all my flying pigs).

Snake

I think See Hidden and True sight should both be taken out of the game. Assassin stealth and archer stealth should function exactly the same(get rid of camo) and I think that assassins and archers should be able to see Minstrils at double or triple the detection range.

Players like to claim TS effects all stealthers equally, but I really have to disagree. Assassins have to be in the target's face to attack. In the middle of a well traveled area. An archer can snipe from the bushes. TS is one of the main reasons I don't even go to emain. That and the zergs (stealth or otherwise). It really seems to be getting harder and harder to find solo fights. But I digress.

Also, Covenn has an idea posted over on the VN Stalker forums about TS. I kind of have to agree somewhat. Basically he's describing a situation on his servers like many servers. Roving gangs of TS archers with speed 5. By spreading their TS's out they are able to effectively scour practically an entire zone and shut it down from nearly all stealther (read: assassin, because of previous comment) activity. I'm not sure this is how Mythic intended TS to be used. It was certainly meant to clear a stationary area like a Milegate. But to speed around TSing every 3-4 minutes? No assassin can move around. They can't attack from the bushes like Archers. So should TS work while speed 5 is up? Or vice versa, should a player with TS active be able to reap the benefits of speed 5? I'm not so sure the 2 of them should be able to work together.

I'm fine with TS so long as its an archer or even a group of archers who is limited to normal running or sprinting speed. That makes them use it in the area they initially set it off in. I'm not ok with them speeding around and TSing an entire zone.

Edit: And yeah for clarification I don't have See Hidden, and I could care less if it was removed from the game.

Edited by: Vexxen DAOC at: 8/28/03 7:59 am

Personally TS doesnt bother me to much, BUT i would rather see it taken away, and give light tanks some sort of pbae (only to uncover, no damage) they can use to try to find us. Not sure about that idea just tossing something out. Hell even make stealth use end, slowly of course.

The main problem is other than stealthers no one can find us. To me there needs to be a way others can, not easily, but can. I like playing a stealther for the challenge, not to be uber or FOTM. Right now and has been, its just to easy.

OHH, or they could put a range on all buffs, that would be cool too. And make PA more powerful.

Spank SB 7L5

Vexxen has a great thought about limiting speed with TS

why not make it go off if you move ... or maybe if thats TOO constricting.. have a radius of movement that will keep TS up ... something small for the archer to move but not enough where they can scan a very large area.

Personally.. I think I'd be happy if TS's ranged was put to something like what See Hidden is now.

My biggest problem with Archers is the fact that I can get plinked from a distance.. most of the time with impunity .. and the amount of free damage they get on me .. (if I'm dumb enough to run towards them) .. outweighs many times what I could get from a PA chain ... and even then I risk getting hit back faster ... and I've gotta line it up right and all the other factors that go with missing a PA ... I know Critshot isn't a given.. but the damage just from the normal shots.. is big enough.

That whole safe from a distance deal..

I'd be happy with SH and TS being just taken out ... but hey maybe that is too much .. i just have my own limited view of the situation ... maybe I should make a Ranger and see.....

I like the idea of limiting TS to not work with speed spells.

I think that ts should work just like see hidden. Only it is the archer version. Shouldn't be able to penetrate all stealth from any ranger should be based on a persons stealth and the ability should get a percentage better ability to see stealth players for that one minute. Possibly a little more effective than see hidden to give archers that edge to get away from a assasin but as far as being able to see any stealther from any range with 50+15 stealth I believe isn't right.

I would be happy without SH, TS, or Camo.. increase your range of seeing stealthed characters by your stealth spec compared to there stealth spec. If a minstrel spends the points to get a natural 40+ into stealth.. then they should have the abilities that go with that (and to do that they would have seriously gimped something else). Stealth is a skill .. make it worth the same to what ever class that specs it.. (including detect hidden, climbwalls, safefall, etc..). It never made sense to me that if an archer who spent 30 points into stealth, did not get climbwalls, and safefall 3. They spent the same points.. why not the same ablitys? Ahh.. but I digress.. Sashe lvl 50 Gimpfiltrator, Darklin lvl 4x Earth Wiz - MLF
Mezisto lvl 3x Sorcerer, Veloc 2x Scout - MLF
Sacre 24 Critfiltrator - MLF

Trimber, 3x Animist - Guinevere
Solino - 2x Mentalist - Guinevere

"Stealth is a skill .. make it worth the same to what ever class that specs it.."

If this were only true of all skills... Would be nice cs boost having tank weapskill for the same amount of investment in weapon..

Exactly Ubergnome.. Edited by: Mezisto at: 8/29/03 8:27 am

I have a 50 Hunter and 50 SB so i play both sides of the street. The only reason TS was put in the game was to combat See Hidden an RA most people respecced out of because it is now worthless and not worth having. Just as buff bots have become a part of the game now you have players with TS bots they tow along just to get easy realm pts.

I have TS and its @#%$ and the only reason i had it was to get revenge once every 30 minutes for SH assasins.

I also believe all rogues should get climb wall and safe fall if your not a CHAIN class (ie minstrel)...

As per stealth? Assasins are masters of stealth and archers are not that is why we have Detect Hidden a class defining ability. Not all rogues should have access to DH just pure assasins... Since SH is about worthless TS now needs to go or be reduced in range to the same that SH is at....

With 35+13 stealth my hunter doesn't have a problem getting ganked out of nowhere like it used to with SH the way it was. SH was overpowered but now TS is as overpowered and needs to get nerfed or removed.

I am for getting rid of both something that never should of entered the game to begin with.