First of all, its about bloody time we got some loving, ive lived with these nerfs for-freak-ever and still got my ranger to 49 :P. Anyways some questions u peeps can mull over :

#1. Can we switch from stealth to Camo just by a push of the quickbar?
#2. Can we activate TS while in Camo, and if so cant we just switch to stealth and knock off our arrow?

1. Yes
2. I'm still trying to pin down all the details, but when I do I'll put up my modified Stealth 101 post.

Congrats Oaklief and all our leads, your hard work has paid off again.

Thank you.

/bow

Can they change the icon? It is the Sprint icon :(


Kwayit

Ok, here's what I discovered last night and this morning about Camouflage.

1. In order to enter camouflage, you must first enter stealth. So anything that prevents you from entering stealth will also prevent entering camouflage.

2. The ten minute timer for entering camouflage after the last combat action (firing a bow, swinging a weapon, taking damage, etc.) works, and its an absolute eternity. If you wish to use this skill as a scout only, relaying information to your realmmates, then there is no issue with hitting stealth and camouflage right away if a mob uncovers you. However, if you wish to use this skill as a sniper, you had best have a hole handy to crawl into while you are vulnerable to See Hidden, because an assassin called to the area from the absolute opposite corner of the zone still has time to track you down if they run to the area visible, then stealth to winkle you out.

2a. Activating or having True Sight active does not count a combat action, so it does not prevent entering camouflage or drop an archer out of camouflage. Any offensive actions taken based on the information gained viat True Sight does drop the archer out of camouflage and prevent recamouflaging for 10 minutes.

3. It does negate See Hidden totally, but the normal formula for seeing a stealthed person applies. Detect Hidden (assassins, border fort guards, portal fort guards, mob scouts) has the extended detection range exactly as if the archer was stealthed and not camouflaged. All others (including assassins without detect hidden, archers, minstrels, other characters, normal keep guards, wandering frontier guards, and normal mobs) have the normal detection range they would if the scout was merely stealthed and not camouflaged.

4. True Sight works against those camouflaged exactly as if they were stealthed.

5. When uncovered by a mob or player it is exactly like being uncovered while in stealth mode - players see shadow form, mobs drop you to full visibility. When being attacked you drop immediately to full visiblity.

6. You can attack while in camouflage mode. I am afraid this will be seen as bringing back the full sniping potential despite the long period of time that we are vulnerable to See Hidden afterwards, and despite the fact that True Sight will still see camouflaged characters.

7. Speed is the same as stealth speed. This is an issue, as groups that you are scouting for routinely overtake those theoretically scouting ahead of them.

8. Currently the only way to leave camouflage mode is to totally cancel stealth and go to full visiblity.

Basically camouflage works exactly like normal stealth except that the archer is immune to See Hidden while its active. It will require that those who wish to scout for their realm spec high in stealth to get whatever speed they can out of stealth and be uncovered by other players and mobs less easily. It should also not bring back the prevalence of sniping attacks due to the vulnerabilities it creates.

Now, some suggestions:

1. The current icon for camouflage is identical to the sprint icon. Camouflage needs its own icon, I'd suggest using the walking person with faded legs that was the old stealth icon before we got the sneaking legs icon. Then, I've always liked that other icon better than the "Bell Fingers" icon we have now.

2. Camouflage needs to be shown in the effects area when active, like stealth is.

3. You need to be able to click on the camouflage hotkey a second time when in camouflage mode to cancel it and go directly back to normal stealth without becoming visible.

4. What do you think about this suggestion? When in camouflage mode, you cannot attack. If you click the camouflage hotkey to drop to stealth mode, there is a 10 second timer on launching an attack (releasing an arrow or making a melee attack). Note that that is the actual release of an arrow, not drawing it. If this cannot be coded easily, instead make it a 5 second timer on drawing an arrow or starting melee, which works out the same for archery. If you are uncovered by a mob or attacked, then you drop immediately to full visiblity and the timer would not be activated as the camouflage icon was not hit. This added vulnerabilty to See Hidden and little bit of extra time should further restrict sniping to those situations that an individual is found standing or sitting alone - ideal situations that beg for killing the individual for *any* class.

5. Speed while in camouflage mode needs to be increased; speed while in stealth mode should remain the same as it is now. Ideally speed while camouflaged should be equal to normal run speed when fully visible (which would trump all stealth speed modifiers) so that we can move at the same speed as the party we are scout for. If this is not possible, then there at least needs to be a bonus to speed while camouflaged - otherwise the scouting uses are negated because groups we are supposed to scout for easily bypass those stealthed. This would still leave assassins as the strongest stealth class - they are the hardest to detect and have the easiest time detecting other stealthers. Archer stealth would be strongest when scouting for groups.

6. Minstrel stealth needs something. Camouflage seems acceptable to most archers that I have talked too; scouts don't seem to mind sharing the scouting role with minstrels. The above suggestions would have to apply as well, so that camouflaged speed-by AOE mezzing isn't overpowered.

Why dont they just drop Stealth altogether from Archers, give us Camo only and just lower the timer to 1 or 2 minutes or something like that.

I personally wouldn't mind if Stealth got dropped altogether, it's really a pain-in-the-ass abililty that you have to painfully put spec points in.

And if you think about it, they could drop stealth altogether, which would drop see-hidden. BUT with no stealth, assasins can see us from plenty far away IMO...

I agree with Areis' post on replacing stealth with camouflage. I wouldn't mind if I could use camouflage to scout only, and that if I attacked I wouldn't be able to hide at all for a period of time. You can't really snipe in the current RvR environment anyway. Also, having to keep another button handy on my quickbar is a pain:rolleyes: But, complaining aside, awesome that we are finally getting a break! I almost cancled due to this True Sight thing, but the 1.52 notes make me happy I didn't. Alot of nice stuff in there.

Can't snipe?
You mean you can't snipe in Emain. I snipe a lot, just not by the thimble in Emain.
Many singles or low groups exp in the frontier. Dead
Many people run solo or in pairs to join groups in the frontier. Dead
Many people have quest mobs in the frontier. Dead

Snipe with Camo 101, take notes.
Camo out to a busy road near a BK or on the way to a exp spot or a road that leads to zerg areas (emain)
Wait for a solo, a straggler, or a lowby duo.
Kill them.
Move to another spot, 5 minute or so walk. By the time you get set up, or soon thereafter, Camo will be back.
Repeat process with 3 choice spots.


Kwayit, sniper scout, but don't listen to me, I only have 90k rps.

Doable, but if any of them has an assasin friend they'll get you back. Or even another archer. IMO not being able to find snipers and assasins AFTER they attacked and you KNEW they were near was the real problem to begin with, and is still quite fixed.

Oaklief,

I think you are right on.

Allow us to move normal speed while in Camo.

To balance out this advantage, Camo should drop whenever we get too near enemy players. Again, scouts aren't supposed to sneak under people' noses, they cruise around quickly and observe from a distance.

Also, I don't think we should be able to attack for several seconds after Camo. I simply think the STEALTH SNIPER ability is what got rangers nerfed in the 1st place. If you want to play STEALTH SNIPER, you must risk See Hidden. (Will assassins pay for See Hidden in the Camo world?) I think the 10 minute timer is quite fair in this regard.

Stealth spec would still affect ability to been seen, but this would make scouting for viable for low-stealth archers. We would have the risk of being seen, but could still scout. How can one be a "ranger" or "scout" going so darn slow??

Thanks,

GP

Originally posted by GP35
Allow us to move normal speed while in Camo.


While I would love this as well. I'm willing to bet, every plat I make from this day forward this will NEVER happen.

10 minutes ain too long......and if they have an assassin fren with 'im....then you jes may be outta luck.

The main argument I would have is this: we are outdoorsman, woodsman if ye will.....if not in a keep.....then we should be able to have detect hidden as well.

But there again, the assassins own RvR right now....in all steatlh situations ta be sure......I jes don see how you can have stealth, but not have detect hidden.

two more cents,

I don't see any reason there should be an attack delay after dropping camo. The range of our attack is a benefit, but it is also a hinderance in terms of finishing a kill.

Since we still pop out of stealth at amazingly frequent intervals when drawing, if there was also an attack delay we could be standing there in full view not being able to do anything while...

a) target sees you, gets scared or smart and quickly runs out of range.

b) target sees you, engages you before you shoot, and rushes toward you for the kill.

c) target sees you, has time to cast any spell in existence from mez to nearsight to dd then either casually kill you or retreat in safety.

d)target sees you and drops back into stealth mode so that you can't see him for 29 out of 30 minutes, then proceeds to close to pa you or just shoot you from regular stealth.

At least now when you pop out of stealth you at least know your arrow is soon on the way. I don't think a delay is neccessary given the 10 minute timer which seems to be a fair concession to the assassins of the world.

Granted picking your location to shoot from is vital and we should all be careful enough to use the terrain, but sometimes it just isn't possible when you have to cross that valley or get a clear los to the gate.

Many of us rarely get shots off in most small RvR fights now because of the problems with targets getting killed and draws dropping. I don't think we need another delay on top of what is already the longest delay in attacking of all the classes. What would be nice would be to allow all stealthers in the same realm be semi-visible at distance, allowing you to know for sure how many allies you actually have when you sneak forward to take the shot on that pesky caster.

I bet everyone that wants to drop stealth or make the walking speep in camo. the same as normal walking speed, has low stealth now.

I have 35 base stealth, that is high from what I hear from other scouts. If you don't like stealth don't put points in to it. But i like it so I have more points in than most.

You want to be fair, you want to have a true scout with scouting skills? Camo. is step one. It works like stealth worked before. Maybe this is why low stealth spec scouts are mad, because they will still be pray for assassins. High stealth means less chance of being seen. Droping stealth isn't a good idea, do you think you will keep 2.0 x your level with 3 specs? No way, 1.5, so if you drop stealth all the low stealth spec scouts will lose points they hav in bow or thier weapon. SO dropping it isn't a good idea for anyone.

Ways to make Camo. a true scouting skill:
1-Camo. makes an archer not seen by see hidden.(Done)
2-Make speed in camo faster. To be fair Camo speed 2x stealth speed. This makes archers with 10 stealth still very slow (with 10 stealth are they really tring to be a scout?)
3-Make clicking on a player tell, their name, level, and class. This has been brought up before, but now with Camo. in place, I think now is the time for this. It would only give you the extra info while in Camo. (for coding reasons, I can understand why it might not go in)
4-Scouts in Camo, have to be looked at as support classes and get RPs from scouting. (A scout can spend hours watching and warning their realm of dangers, and never get 1 realm point) Making Camo run 2xthe speed of stealth can make high stealth spec archers run faster than normal speed, this will help scouts scout and get back for some RPs. With all the speed classes a scout even at 2x 50 +15 stealth can't out run them so realm points while in Camo is needed.

Don't change how the timers are. Yes a sniper can shoot from Camo. and kill someone, it is the 10 min wait after that, that lets assassins attack the sniper. With our long draw time any other time added to that would make a scout useless in helping their group. It might not be what Camo. is ment for but if you are standing on a mile gate wall, or keep wall watching for the enemy are you not going to be using Camo, so assassins don't kill you? So you are standing there in Camo, and you see an assassin killing a healer on the other side of the keep, you would be powerless to help the healer with any added time to shooting. With out any extra time you are going to lose the healer 90% of the time, only if the assassin fears for their life will they stop attacking and run. With any extra time the healer would be dead everytime. Once you help someone, attack someone, or have done so in the past few mins, assassins can see you and kill you, so the system as is works. Doesn't stop 100% of sniping, but does let others hunt down the sniper.

Originally posted by Oakleif
2. The ten minute timer for entering camouflage after the last combat action (firing a bow, swinging a weapon, taking damage, etc.) ...

Taking damage does not start the 10 minutes camo timer, if you take damage but you don't attack you will be able to camo after the usual 10 seconds stealth timer.

I noticed this after a suicide on a keep, then i "tested" it with a mob. Here is the log:

log #1

[00:19:00] The megafelid attacks you and you evade the blow!
[00:19:02] Your character has been saved.
[00:19:04] The megafelid attacks you and you evade the blow!
[00:19:05] Mrdeath was just killed by Trevanti!
[00:19:07] The megafelid attacks you and you block the blow!
[00:19:11] The megafelid attacks you and you evade the blow!
[00:19:14] The megafelid attacks you and you evade the blow!
[00:19:18] The megafelid attacks you and you block the blow!
[00:19:21] The megafelid attacks you and you block the blow!
[00:19:25] The megafelid attacks you and you evade the blow!
[00:19:29] The megafelid attacks you and you block the blow!
[00:19:32] The megafelid attacks you and you block the blow!
[00:19:36] The megafelid attacks you and you block the blow!
[00:19:39] The megafelid attacks you and misses!
[00:19:43] The megafelid attacks you and you evade the blow!
[00:19:47] The megafelid attacks you and you block the blow!
[00:19:51] The megafelid attacks you and you block the blow!
[00:19:54] The megafelid attacks you and you evade the blow!
[00:19:58] The megafelid attacks you and misses!
[00:20:02] The megafelid attacks you and you block the blow!
[00:20:05] The megafelid attacks you and you evade the blow!
[00:20:09] The megafelid attacks you and you block the blow!
[00:20:17] You've been in combat recently and can't hide yet!
[00:20:19] You are now hidden!
[00:20:21] You camouflage yourself into your surroundings!

I got block and evade (while walking backwards) but no hits (it was a green), then i came back near him with a bow in hand to get some hit too:

log #2

[00:20:40] You are no longer hidden!
[00:20:56] You target [the megafelid]
[00:20:56] You examine the megafelid. It is aggressive towards you!
[00:21:04] You target [the megafelid]
[00:21:04] You examine the megafelid. It is aggressive towards you!
[00:21:06] You target [the megafelid]
[00:21:06] You examine the megafelid. It is aggressive towards you!
[00:21:06] The megafelid attacks you and misses!
[00:21:10] The megafelid attacks you and you evade the blow!
[00:21:14] The megafelid hits your torso for 63 (-15) damage!
[00:21:17] The megafelid hits your arm for 49 (-11) damage!
[00:21:21] The megafelid hits your arm for 65 (-15) damage!
[00:21:23] You prepare to sprint!
[00:21:24] The megafelid attacks you and misses!
[00:21:44] You are no longer sprinting.
[00:21:47] You are now hidden!
[00:21:47] You camouflage yourself into your surroundings!

I heartily agree with most of the above posters regarding improvements and refinements that need to be made.

To elaborate on the speed boost issue. Currently Camo simply nullifies See Hidden; it does not correct the current trend of using assasins as scouts. This trend will continue for a couple of reasons:

1) Assasins tend to spec higher in stealth, thus can move around a bit faster
2) They, while stealthed, are less detectible than a scout while camo'd.

Thus the clear way to make Scouts the preferred scout is to make us far more mobile than assasin classes.


Another critical issue is that of attacking while camo'd. The easy answer to this problem is:

1) Scout standing on a hill camo'd
2) Scout sees a juicy lone target
3) Scout draws bow
4) Scout automatically drops from camo to normal stealth
5) System determines if stealth should drop due to bow draw
6) Scout releases bow

This solves the problem since, if there is no assasin around with see hidden, camo itself isn't an issue. If there IS an assasin with See Hidden, he can see you as soon as you draw.


The suggestions for a blackout period after dropping camo, whereby you can't fight is *extremely* problematic. If I'm lucky enough to see an assasin coming at me (good ole TS) while I'm camo'd, it would really unbalance things if I had to wait for him to PA me before I could respond. Remember there is no way for the system to know whether or not I'm drawing my bow for offensive or defensive purposes.

The point here is, yes you can snipe... once.... That 10 minute timer is gonna be a bitch :)

The faster speed idea is the best one yet!

Damn waste of time, camo is what stealth should have been before see hidden anyway. Typical to take a step forward and go two steps back...

I don't like the idea of having a timer before attacking. Currently You can go from Recon mode to attack mode any time you want. You can't go from attack mode to recon mode. This will definetly curb sniping/ganking. Let's face it, sniping will never fully leave the game unless they remove ranged attacks or they remove stealth.

I really think that increasing the speed in camo is a good idea though. The downside to this is that snipers will possibly have a means to sneak out to prime ganking grounds totally invisible and very quickly. That said, increasing the speed would also let me scout! It would let me keep up with groups and remain stealthed.

EDIT: My opinion of this has changed. I would rather have a shorter duration timer even if I couldn't attack for a short time after dropping camo

Has anyone else looked at camo/stealthed archers from their assassins eyes with see hidden?

Perhaps it's a fluke, but I run an Infiltrator with see hidden of course. When the scout is in normal stealth, you see them shadowed if in clipping plane. When they go camo, all this does is reduces the distance with which I can see them.

It does seem to be stealth spec and level related. Ie the lower your level regardles of stealth spec percentage of your level, the farther away I could see them. The higher stealth spec the closer I had to be.

If the assassin is even con, with > stealth than you. He can see you at about what I would call the 700-1000 range.

Its hard to say with the rangers since I am not sure if they are camo'd or stealthed when I spot them. They appear as the same shadow figure either way. I have not run backwards to see if the range was different or not.

Greyhawke:

You are seeing them at Detect Hidden range. Detect Hidden depends on your level and their stealth spec (for you seeing them), so you are correct. Formulas are in my Stealth Guide (http://rothwellhome.org/guides/stealth.htm).

hail all first post and n00b scout :) (not a n00b player)

I have leveled many chars since the start of DAOC and i must say the best fun i have had is with my now lvl 32 scout.
After reading some of your excellent posts,I must agree with the drop stealth theory.
As it stands now it is fairly useless to us scouts after all we are not infiltrators are we.
Infs at least have the ability to turn and fight as some of them guys do major major dmg with the duel wield,we dont have that ability.
We rely solely on our bow skill and distance, but if it all goes wrong (and it often does...prep cs...miss....fumble..miss....miss....run away) i think we should at least have the abilty to out run a potential life threatening event.
What i would like to see is stealth droped ,camo timer droped and a new skill set of sprint, one of which you have to put points into to increase camo and speed of sprint.
Probably never happen but i can dream carnt I :D

i have some off the wall ideas here...

Camo

- while archers are in Camo allow them to 'see hidden' as if their stealth spec is equal to their level. This would allow for a slightly greater reaction time for those archers who are actually 'scouting'.

- Make Camo Only work when the 'archer' is not moving and decrease his chances of being detected immensely to ALL classes, don't just negate see hidden... the word 'Camoflauge' would lead me to beleive that i'm blending in to my surroundings, which is practically impossible to do while moving... if the bow is drawn drop out of camo AND stealth. i think this would increase the amount of 'recon archers and decrease the amount of 'snipers'. increase the Camo timer to 15 minutes.

i beleive the code is already there to 'check if moving' and would be able to cut and paste some of that... as for the chances of being detected, that's a simple formula tweak... while the dropping from bow and stealth would also be just a formula tweak (if memory serves me correctly...)

anyway... something to chew on there... ;)

Hmm...... I have read all the posts on this subject. I find it real intersting. I have a 33 Scout 26 in stealth LB at lvl and thrust around 20 with remaining in shield. I don't know what scouts where like before the above mentioned nerf. I have been playing with camo in the bg's. ( I know childs play for most of you.. but I am trying hard to figure this RVR out before going to the big time.) I have gone out and scouted for my groups and really lost out on RP's So now I stand stealth next to the cleric and shoot from a distants and hope someone else finishes the kill. Camo for me IMHO has not helped becasue I get ganked just as much with it as without it. True stealthers rule RVR. I also know that I have a lot to learn about being a sniper scout.. I think the the best thing Mythic can give me because I can"t one shot kill to much, I can't go mondo stealth without selling a kidney in Realm skills, I will Prob never be a mele killer with training in LB, I can't scale walls and drop dots on other Archers, I can't debuff shout the enemy. All I ask is let me Poison my arrows with a nice DOT !!!!

Stearne 33 Scout, Gwenevere

I would have to agree with the idea of being able to allow poison on arrows.

Perhaps adding it as a level ability at level 40. Just the DoT or a snare. One or the other (not both).

It wouldnt be the highest tiered DoT or snare but perhaps these

Greater Lethal Venom (level 40 envenom)
Major Crippling Poison (level 31 evenom)

I have heard from certain people that chance to fail application has been removed entirely for assasin classes applying their poisons (I could be wrong on this please correct me if I am).

This is just a couple ideas to get the ball rolling...it might be a little overpowered so please feel free to add your own suggestions.

Originally posted by Blayke
I would have to agree with the idea of being able to allow poison on arrows.


I think there are two problems with that. First, adding a snare to a ranged attack is incredibly powerfu (even overpowered)l ability. Second, Even if it were balanced you would have to put it under a spec line. You wouldn't be able to just give it to them at level 40 since it would be so powerful.

Hi all! (First post @ this place)

Well, here is my opinion about camou. Mythic wanted to force archers into groups. They should also force assassins into groups or force groups to have an assassin :). The 10 min. timer is a pain. After we attacked an enemy running around in group, we will always be found if any assassin is close. And imho only "smart" groups should find us once we restealthed. I would recommend a 30 secs or at the most 1 min timer to reenter camou. This would leave enough time for the enemy group to search for us and find us if they´ve got an assassin when we had "dared" to attack them and offer some sniping opportunities for us without being assassin-fodder all the time.
I like the idea of having higher running speed in camou though. Currently all archer classes still do not have enough benefits from speccing in stealth. And if mythic wants to force us into groups, they should finally give us something our groups would benefit from.
For example:
stealth and camou active: higher movement speed stealthed
activated camou WITHOUT stealth: group will have running speed. This could be justified with our role in the game to be "scouts" and "pathfinders", we know the territory and "shortcuts" ;) are able to lead our groups to the target area in less time.

What do you think about that?

Edit: Uh, and if mythic does not want to give group running speed to any more classes in the game, they should take it away from runemasters, theurgists and wardens and give it to hunters, scouts and rangers, because the named classes already fullfill their roles of being supporters providing pBT.

Let's face it. Camo is as close to Mythic admitting See Hidden was a mistake as we'l ever get. As it is now, I can camo, and feel fairly safe from Assasins until the first encounter. At this point I have to decide if I want to help my group out and lose camo, or let them gank our 'victims' and hand me the RPs. Not a good feeling when we meet just a few Albs or Hibs, leaving all the fighting up to them. I'd like to see the timer reduced to 3-5 minutes. It is plenty of time for any assasins in the area to hunt us down.

As it is now, I think we should get Longshot and Volleyshot for free as we were promised, and take a closer look at the Realm skills we can choose from. I'd like to see a Stealth speed skill that allows us to run at 'normal' speed while stealthed.

Camo sucks. Plain and simple. I think alot of archers dont even bother with stealth anymore it is nearly useless to us. Camo is useful once then you are dead. The only real use for camo is if you want to snipe. Which is what mythic wanted to do away with in the first place. I have no spec in stealth on my 36 scout or my 41 scout. Both use camo when standing still and thats it. The rest of the time we have to uncamo stealth to keep up with group. My 36 scout cant get RvR groups and cant solo RvR so he has to stay with the crowd and I use hunting bow to do a little dmg to as many targets as I can. My 41 scout can get in groups but with no stealth i sorta behave the same way as the 36 scout just get heals buffs and a quicker res.
Someone above said a long range snare is over powered in response to poisons on arrows. Well eldritch have an entire DD line that comes with a 50% snare and even an AoE one if I am not mistaken. I imagine other casters do as well. Plus if you could only apply one poison at a time to your top stack of arrows your second arrow would break the snare anyway.
Poison arrows working off the Bow skill ( or envenom as long as we get as many skill points as assassins) would be a perfect fix for archers in all realms. Scouts would still be a bit under powered compared to mid and hib archers but with dots and debuffs we would be a bit more capable of real contribution to our realms efforts.
I also want to see flaming arrows that do dot dmg to keep doors as well as arrows with a DD proc.
My guess is that will never happen due to code restrictions. I am sure Sanya would refer to a request like this as Impossible just like the 8 characters per server.

In anycase CAMO SUCKS
thats all I got

On the subject of stealth being dropped on scouts, IMO I think that would suck and if it ever happened I would probally get rid of my account, But I do agree with speed in camo and that it needs to be increased for SCOUTing reasons.

If you have no Stealth spec why do you bother to put camo up when you're standing still xurliben (not that I advocate standing still in stealth, that's just asking for a perf)? You do realize that if you have zero stealth the enemy will see you with Detect Hidden (not even See Hidden) at 2500-2700 units of range... See Hidden would allow them to see you at 3000 if Camo wasn't up. Archers have to understand something, for Camo to work at all you still need a Stealth spec, it's not a magic fix.

Now I'm not saying Camo is great, it sucks, yes, it's a band aid fix for another band-aid fix. I don't depend on it, I still scout day and night and I'm not gonna wait for the stupid timer to be up or not attack someone because it might bring it down. Still has it's uses tho, getting thru obviously camped mile gates is a lot easier with Camo on if you have a decent Stealth spec... this of 'course for those of us that still use Stealth anyway, it's a choice obviously and there's viable specs with 1 Stealth.

I still enjoy the Stealth game and grouping with other Rogues tho. Don't even need Camo much there unless we're traveling thru a very hot or camped zone and there's other non-stealthed enemies that would zerg us if uncovered. Whole fights of SBs and Hunters vs. Scouts and Infs are always a hoot, the Hib rogues in my server seem a bit scaredy and they don't solo as much or stray from non-stealth groups.

Personally, I would be very happy if:

1. Stealth was dropped from Scouts entirely.
2. TS, SH removed from asssassins.
3. SH given to Scouts.
4. Some form of speed given to Scouts.

We're not the assassins, we're the eyes.

But that's just my perspective :)

Heya from european servers.

got a 50 briton scout on excalibur server , imo TS and see hidden should both be dropped , or at least see hidden for assisn be put on same timer /reset as TS.

reduce number of miss/fumbles .

maybe up scout melee damage in line with rangers/hunters
dont say becoz we get sheilds we shouldnt , ive been hit for 200+ by a hunters spear while he only hit me for 150 with his bow.

be nice too move faster while camo'd at least 25% faster then when normal stealthed , maybe cant enter melee/bow mode while camo'd with 10 sec delay on that .


also camo timer imo should be from when camo was last activated/deactivated, not from when u was last in melee or fired ur bow, maybe too negate this fact , has anyone used /bought the RA Vanish? , like use vanish after uve sniped someone and theres an assin looking for u?.

my 5 cent's worth , since ive been playing my scout , things have only gotton worse for us , i used too love soloing in rvr , now we just cant :(

also , oakleif ask for a Quiver for the 2h slot , so we dont waste space in Bkpak carrying arrows , maybe have a 300 arrow limit in quiver , think it would look cool strapped to our back :)

snakester.
50 scout ,
Proud member of Ferus Legionis {Excalibur server European}

Ok, I don't have a very high level ranger but I do have a Nightshade almost to level 50 and have been playing DAOC since it came out. See Hidden was put in to negate the power of the Archery classes. Look at how overpowerred most people thing the assassin classes are, before they put in see hidden and negated stealth for Archers sometimes, the archers were a lot like assassins but from long range and had more time to run away than an assassin does. I think that it sort of helps the game a little bit. The problem is is that I think the 10 minute timer to be a little long for the skill.... I think it needs reduced to 5 minutes. Another problem I think that has been becoming more inherent with the game is buff botting. This has been somethng that has been going on for far too long and needs to be squelched. The only problem is is that I doubt Mythic is going to do anything about it since fixing that problem would mean a lot of those people cancelling their second accounts. I think about 1 person in every high level group I have joined lately has had a buff bot of some sort just to keep on par with the other people in the game. I personally know how much more powerful I become when I have a level 50 nurture specced Druid buffs on me. This new patch that is coming out tomorrow(1.61) is just increasing the power of buffbots dramatically. There needs to be a fix put on for the buffbotting and soon otherwise more people are going to be leaving the game soon. My proposed fix is to put a limited range on conc buffs of something like 8000. This would be enough to let people scout ahead for the group I think. But not just run around entire realms with buffs and make people scream of how overpowerred the assassin classes are. Also I think see hidden should be taken out or modified somewhat to make it a little less powerful. Or maybe even decreasing the camo time to 5 minutes would help. Just my thoughts though.... If this sounds a little choppy I am at work and writing it between clients so my thoughts have been mixing around. Buffbots shall ruin the archer and assassin classes for us all by the single few that are going to abuse it and get us all nerfed once again. Power to the whiners I guess.

-Dresler Baenre
Rogue of the heart, darn the nerfs.:mad:

Good post. I especially like the "power to the whiners" part - that pretty much sums the rash of knee jerk "fixes" to the stealth classes. I always agreed that we were a little overpowered and needed to be brought down a peg or two, but the combination of these "fixes" produced too radical a change, especially for archers.

I do like the idea brought forward by Oaklief, were camo would act as a kind of speed chant (it would give caster speed to the scout, and only to the scout). After a fight, the scout would be only able to stealth, and use camo after the timer is finished.

Stealth spec 6 - 124% speed
Stealth spec 16 - 132% speed
Stealth spec 26 - 139% speed
Stealth spec 36 - 147% speed
Stealth spec 46 - 154% speed

However, I also feel that speccing higher in stealth should be rewarded through reducing the camo timer.

Stealth spec 30 - 8 min camo timer
Stealth spec 35 - 7 min camo timer
Stealth spec 40 - 6 min camo timer
Stealth spec 45 - 5 min camo timer
Stealth spec 50 - 4 min camo timer


There would be an RA to augment this camo timer, 1 minute per lvl, with a capped camo timer of 3 minutes. 3 minutes is a lot of time due to the high number of assasins around.
Regards, Glottis

I really like Glottis' speed and timer reduction for stealth spec idea. Good suggestion there.

The earlier suggestion of 2x stealth speed while in camo would also be a good fix to the "scouting from behind the zerg" issue.

I haven't reached the level necessary to get camo yet but from what I've read the following suggestion would be a change: allow camo only while NO weapon is drawn, this could be said to be hiding the weapon in one's pack/robes/etc. in game terms and remove camo from the sniper's arsenal. I would suggest changing the timer from 10 mins after the last attack to 30 secs to 1 min after all weapons were re-sheathed. And I would tack that timer on to stealth in general FOR EVERYONE who uses stealth. Why should an assassin be able to one shot kill me at close range and restealth 1.5 secs later to one shot kill my rezzer who couldn't get her mez off fast enough to beat the restealth, or for my tank buddy to close the range fast enough to prevent stealthing, assuming they were looking at me at the instant I was killed since if they weren't they would never know what killed me? As is the only safe place for a scout is in the middle of the zerg leeching RPs.

Hello, frist time i've posted here and great great site btw:)

Well on to the topic of camo. I was recentlly in emain, saw a solo wizzy and so i took my usual shot on him, but of course his buble stoped it. I normally would have continued shooting but a cuple groups of mids suddenlly apeard in the distance and so i began to bolt, made it out of site, steathed and relized that i could still get Camo up!!

So my question is am i somehow mistaken or if your shot gets stoped by a magic barrier, and u stop shotting after this, can u still get camo up?

thx.

Kurackus 47 ranger
Palomides

That is correct. If your shot gets BTed and you disengage from the target then you can still use Camo.

I've noticed when I shoot and get miss message the camo timer is not reset either.

Same things with a block or an evade...your camo is only reset if you actually hit your target.

I want the ability to turn camo off without having to drop stealth entirely, wait 1 second before I can restealth again. I drop camo to draw assassins into a scout/infil team ambush when out in the frontier... it works like a charm btw.

How hard is it for mythic to allow the camo button to toggle on/off?

Well, I heard there is a bug on Pendragon currently involving Camo. Apparently, Camo make archers totally invisible--not even a shadow form.

Now people are screaming that this is a bug. But when I first heard about Camo, I thought this would be how it would work. Except I thought the archer would have to be totally still to use Camo (stand still for 30 secs or so), and any movement would drop the camo . I don't think that would be overpowered at all. Since there is no ability to move, only stand and scout. They could still be hit by ground-target and ae spells. Just cant be seen (see definition of camoflauge):

Fabric or a garment dyed in splotches of green, brown, tan, and black so as to make the wearer indistinguishable from the surrounding environment

Jerrine,

I like both your ideas. Your first one, to let Camo'd Archers have temporary "See Hidden", is both very realistic and very helpful for Archers considering the current siuation with assassins. Realistic because it is hard to sneak past someone that you don't even see! And helpful to archers for painfully obvious reasons...

Your second idea involved the notion of standing still for use of Camo. This I also have been posting at a couple different forums lately: To require Camo user to first remain still for 1 minute. Then, the Camo'd archer will be unseen (even if someone is on top of him) or at the very least, not susceptible to Detect Hidden. However, to keep Camo you must remain motionless. Any movement will break the Camo cover. I think this would be great. It would allow archers to actually disappear into the foliage and watch an area without getting terrorized by assassins.

The slow speed of stealthed chars is annoying, yes. But I accept it as part of being stealthed. You can't be too sneaky while you are running. If your group doesn't have patience to let you sneak into place, they should be trying some other scenarios such as keep defense!

Read further up that somebody wanted to have the stealth skill removed, if so you won't have access to camo either since you need the latter to be able to camo as we are all very aware.

However if they want to address this then personally camo should be just that, a way to blend into your surroundings without "magically" disappearing this would then make see hidden, detect hidden redundant, the skill should be passive and depending how fast you move dictates how good your camo is and only if they stumble on to you when standing still then you would be detected, this could then be tied up with the clothing you wear which aids in the camo, thus making distinct archers, ie snow specialist, tundra, woodland etc etc, if you wish to be good in all terrains then use the cloths as appropriate, gives a little more depth to a character I feel.