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Topic:
Pet information (long)
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Lemo 
Posts: 2,843
Registered: Dec 01
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Date Posted:
5/1 3:11am
Subject: Pet information (long)
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Yawn. I just finished several hours of compiling data on Pendragon. I tested things such as pet damage caps, weapon choices, styles, etc. It's 5:30am and I'm sleepy, so I'm just going to kind of spew out what I've gathered, and worry about organizing it later.
Commander
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The commander is summoned with one of nine weapons. Three axes, three hammers, and three swords. I matched up the weapon model with the ones players use, and so make the assumption that the base speed is the same, which the damage caps support. They are as follows:
2H Great Sword, 5.4s, 362 unstyled cap
2H Great Hammer, 5.3s, 355 unstyled cap
1H Bastard Sword, 4.1s, 276 unstyled cap
1H Long Sword, 3.6s, 242 unstyled cap
1H War Hammer, 3.5s, 233 unstyled cap
1H War Axe, 3.1s, 210 unstyled cap
1H Small Hammer, 2.8s, 185 unstyled cap
1H Bearded Axe, 2.7s, 180 unstyled cap
1H Hand Axe, 2.4s, 158 unstyled cap
Note that axe has three 1H choices and no 2H choice. This selection of weapons is why it can sometimes be hard to get a specific weapon, such as a 2H hammer. The chance is only 1 in 9, so on average that's a heck of a lot of power.
When wielding an axe, the commander uses Splitter (anytime, weak damage) and Evernight (rear positional, bleed effect). When wielding a hammer, the commander uses Thor's Anvil (anytime, weak damage) and Frost Hammer (side positional, snare). When wielding a sword, the commander uses Whirling Blade (anytime, weak damage) and Northern Lights (side positional, attack speed debuff). Let me emphasize that when I say weak damage, I really mean weak damage. When wielding a 2H Great Hammer for instance, the commander's unstyled cap is 355 damage, its Thor's Anvil cap is 368 damage, but it's Frost Hammer cap is a whopping 521 damage. Note also that these numbers were taken from an unbuffed commander. A commander with quickness and/or haste buffs will have lower style caps, due to the styles compensating for attack speed.
I would also like to point out right now that the commander is NOT getting a 2H damage bonus, nor is he getting the 'slow weapon' bonus. The damage he does is directly proportional to the delay of his weapon. Thus, 2H weapons are not as important as perhaps we used to think. They will frontload better, but the DPS is the same as any of the 1H weapons. More important is getting the damage type and styles that you prefer. Of the three positional styles, Evernight, Frost Hammer, and Northern Lights, Frost Hammer has the highest damage bonus, although they're all fairly close.
Guardian
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This guy is summoned with one of five weapons. Four 1H hammers, and a 2H staff.
2H ? Staff, ~4.8s, 271 unstyled cap
1H Pick Hammer, 3.7s, 207 unstyled cap
1H War Hammer, 3.5s, 181 unstyled cap
1H Hammer, 3.1s, 194 unstyled cap
1H Small Hammer, 2.8s, 165 unstyled cap
This guy doesn't do any styles, so I don't have a lot to say about him.
Soldier
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These guys are pretty interesting. They are summoned with one of five axes: three 2H, two 1H. I'm going to skip the delays on these weapons, because they did not seem to conform with the player versions. I may come back to this to test further, but for now, here's what I've found:
2H Great Axe, 274 unstyled cap
2H Large Axe, 265 unstyled cap
2H War Cleaver, 253 unstyled cap
1H War Axe, didn't write down cap
1H Hand Axe, didn't write down cap
These guys are the style kings. They do Splitter (anytime, weak damage), Plague (anytime, taunt), Pillager (anytime, attack speed debuff), Plunderer (followup to Pillager, snare), and Evernight (rear positional, bleed). Yes, that's right, these guys use a style chain. The animation for Plague is pretty funny, too.
Archer
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The extent of these guys suck factor is well known, and I'm not here to say any different. They're always summoned with the same bow, and I suspect the same sword. I never bothered to test their sword damage, as these guys are so uninspiring.
Bow, ?s, 241 shot cap
These guys are even worse with bows than my Hunter.  They take forever to fire, and seem to prefer running around to shooting. Unless they're getting access to Truesight in the New Frontiers (  ), they're worthless.
Mystic
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Not much to say about these guys, except that their DD cap is 307 damage, body resist type. I had to test them on level 0 mobs because I had no way to make them cap on a level 50 player. The body resist debuff does work for them, but negative body resists are treated as 0 resistance. These guys suck, too, in case you were wondering.
Seer
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Okay, I was pretty sleepy by this point, but fortunately there isn't a lot to say about these guys either. They are summoned with one of two 2H hammers that I saw:
2H Great Hammer, 273 unstyled cap
2H ? Hammer (weird model), 266 unstyled cap
They fire an instant attack speed debuff, then cast a disease, then run in to melee.
That is just about all the information I have gathered. I just have a final word or two on the significance of the above, and then I'll end it.
Damage caps are used merely for comparison purposes, and to know what the maximum potential damage is for a given pet. Given that you'll usually have a level 41 commander and/or 37 fossils hitting a level 50 player, your pets have a rather steep level-based damage penalty to overcome. In other words, don't expect them to actually cap on anyone who isn't sitting. Strength buffs do make a HUGE difference to average damage however. I do not know if strength relics affect pets at this time. I didn't bother running any average damage tests (yet), because frankly that would take a while and I'm already exhausted. I may come back to that though.
And finally, a note on styles. As I mentioned previously, the positional styles of the commander do far more damage than the lousy newbie anytime style. Not only that, I suspect that the styles retain their to-hit bonus that players get when using them. Evernight and Northern Lights have a low to-hit bonus, Frost Hammer has a medium to-hit. If I'm correct, it means that the commander will have a much easier time hitting higher level mobs when allowed to use Frost Hammer (summoned with a hammer, positioned to the side of the mob). Also, although most of the fossils have similar unstyled caps, the soldiers are the only ones to use styles. Ergo, they will do a fair bit more damage, and will have a better to-hit from those styles.
Okay, that's everything. Questions, comments, and criticism welcome from Sheena or anyone else who cares enough to have read this far. 
Lemo
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Pyroxene_daoc
Posts: 3,390
Registered: Jan 02
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Date Posted:
5/1 5:34am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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Nice write up. Thanks Lemo.
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jermc 
Posts: 53
Registered: Jun 03
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Date Posted:
5/1 10:08am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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Nice post. I'd always wondered what the actual numbers are. My problem is that with the BA spec., is I can't get my pet in position to do those better styles. 
Also, I'm still not sure which weapon will consistatantly do the most damage, especially considering how often they miss. That's why I like my Commander to use a one hander most of the time. If he misses it doesn't take as long to get another swipe in at the mob.
Are there any pets that could be considered best or worst, or is just dependant on what kind of mob your attacking?
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Numerous other baby tunes.- Tristan
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Lemo
Posts: 2,843
Registered: Dec 01
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Date Posted:
5/1 10:28am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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jermc,
I think that the choice comes down to slash or crush damage. If a mob is resistant to one and vulnerable to the other, that will likely make more of a difference in DPS than anything else. 1H and 2H will not really affect the commander's DPS, so I would almost say that 1H is better for its small chance to block.
Between axe and sword (the two slash types), I find that axe is easier to position, as you just back up. This assumes of course that you're tanking. Sword on the other hand has the better positional style effect in an attack speed debuff.
The absolute best case scenario for the commander is probably a bony undead mob (20% vulnerable to crush) on which the commander is positioned to do Frost Hammers. Highest damage style he has, with the highest to-hit bonus, and with the highest resist bonus he can get.
As you are playing BA spec, I don't really see how you can take advantage of the positional styles, unless the soldiers are able to keep aggro off the commander, and the commander happens to be in the right position.
Lemo
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Sheena_iliachenvaar
Title: Bonedancer TL
Posts: 1,247
Registered: Dec 01
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Date Posted:
5/3 8:47am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
- Date Edited: 5/3 8:54am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Sheena_iliachenvaar
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Very interesting write up. I didn't even realize that they used so many different weapons (for the soldiers say). Great job on identifying the styles they're using. If you don't mind, I'd like to add some of this info to the BD guide for reference. I think it'd help all BDs make informed decisions on pet selection.
Did you get the casting speed on the mystics. I'd be curious to see their DPS with nukes. By any chance or note whether the seers instant was AE or single target? I think it's AE which is an issue for breaking mezzes and agroing nearby mobs and I've been asking to remove the AE part or make it not break mez at least.
One other thing that I'd wish I could quantify is the frequency of guardian pets procing their self BT. I really think it's more harmful than anything since it's designed to be cast in combat somehow but I'd like to see some kind of quantification on how often they proc it and how long between swing-BT cast-swing to make an argument on how much DPS they lose from it for the limited benefit of BT on themselves considering they don't get agro from commander very often.
I'm also thinking that we should get less choices in pets with the same weapon type.
Here's what I'd prefer for commander:
2H Great Sword, 5.4s, 362 unstyled cap
2H Great Hammer, 5.3s, 355 unstyled cap
<add 2H axe>
1H Bastard Sword, 4.1s, 276 unstyled cap
<remove 1H Long Sword, 3.6s, 242 unstyled cap>
1H War Hammer, 3.5s, 233 unstyled cap
<remove 1H War Axe, 3.1s, 210 unstyled cap>
<remove 1H Small Hammer, 2.8s, 185 unstyled cap>
1H Bearded Axe, 2.7s, 180 unstyled cap
<remove 1H Hand Axe, 2.4s, 158 unstyled cap>
That was you'd have 1/6 chance to get the weapon type you want instead of 1/9. And you'd still get a decent spread in delays and damage types.
Same for soldiers. Multiple axes are overkill IMO. Replace 2 axes by 1H and 2H hammers so that they too have both slash and crush damage type.
-----signature-----
Sheena - Ex-Bonedancer TL - Pendragon
Shandrill - Bonedancer Isen Herra Banelord 8 - Pellinor
Fjordhild - Spiritmistress - Pellinor
Fjordhild - Thane - Pendragon
NF BD Guide 2.0: http://www.drunkenfriar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3466
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WuHs
Posts: 1,977
Registered: Mar 02
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Date Posted:
5/3 12:20pm
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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3 Words.
Lemo for TL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Wushusmooner - 50 Shammie/Pellinor - Done
Wush - 50 Bonedancer /Pellinor - Done
DAOC Done
Upcoming Undead Warlock
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Lemo
Posts: 2,843
Registered: Dec 01
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Date Posted:
5/3 1:03pm
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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Sheena,
No, I didn't get the casting speed on the mystics, or indeed the delays of any of the pet actions. That sort of thing takes a while, and I just wasn't prepared to do it that night. The delays of the commander weapons are a guess based on their caps and the delays that the player version of each model have.
The mystics do not exactly cast quickly. Maybe they just need some ToA equipment.
Not as slow as archers though! Those guys are so slow, you'd think they were unionized.
I've also heard that one of the seer spells was instant (I can never remember which), but as I was testing in a duel with a Shaman, I couldn't tell. If I can find a pet class to test on, that will probably make it obvious.
I can't think of an easy way to quantify how counter-productive the bladeturn is of the guardian. I agree that he tends to cast it at inappropriate times, though. Perhaps if they simply made it an instant such as the Spiritmaster pet has, it would solve this particular problem.
I agree that the commander has too many redundant weapon choices. It would also be nice if had a thrust spear choice, for the times when you want that damage type. Or better still, it would be nice if maybe we had a little inventory window into which we can drop equipment to outfit the commander with (think Diablo 2 hireling window).
WuHs,
Lemo
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PhairOhX
Posts: 132
Registered: May 03
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Date Posted:
5/3 3:02pm
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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Excellent post Lemo.
I've always tried to get the commander with one of the one handed axes, myself. I have no idea if it's true, but it has always seemed to me that the bleeds from his rear style stack. Even if they don't, I deffinately notice a large increase in the damage over time I do to mobs when he gets a few rear bleed styles in in a row.
Has anyone else noticed this? I'm probably wrong but even if I am I'm going to continue to be an axe commander user.
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Sheena_iliachenvaar
Title: Bonedancer TL
Posts: 1,247
Registered: Dec 01
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Date Posted:
5/4 7:12am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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Spear is a good idea for weapon choice. Claws possibly as well.
I think to quantify the loss of productivity on guardian BT, you'd have to get their regular swing rate and find by how much the casting of BT extends it. IMO it makes them miss 2-3 swings. On RvR soft targets and blue cons, they have usually about 50-75% hit rate so I'd probably think it makes them miss 1.5-2 hits or so. With DPS of about 15ish on those targets, you're probably looking at a loss of 100 dmg or so by casting a useless self BT.
That'd be my guess but with a log in duel you could be more accurate. By getting how often they cast BT and how long each delay the next swing to find. With the %hit chance, you could get how much that affects their effective DPS.
-----signature-----
Sheena - Ex-Bonedancer TL - Pendragon
Shandrill - Bonedancer Isen Herra Banelord 8 - Pellinor
Fjordhild - Spiritmistress - Pellinor
Fjordhild - Thane - Pendragon
NF BD Guide 2.0: http://www.drunkenfriar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3466
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minstrel_yurk 
Posts: 260
Registered: Feb 02
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Date Posted:
5/4 12:22pm
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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Awesome
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Kittens give Morbo gas.
24 Friar, Merlin
35 Hunter, 35 SB, Lancelot
Various 50 alts
/shrug
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WuHs
Posts: 1,977
Registered: Mar 02
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Date Posted:
5/4 1:18pm
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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"I've also heard that one of the seer spells was instant (I can never remember which), but as I was testing in a duel with a Shaman, I couldn't tell. "
The only shammie insta is the PBAoE disease which has a -15 STR debuff and snare. The effect is a 3 red circles going large to small.
If the shammie did get that off I wonder how much -15 STR plays into damage. Which brings up a post for Lemo.
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Wushusmooner - 50 Shammie/Pellinor - Done
Wush - 50 Bonedancer /Pellinor - Done
DAOC Done
Upcoming Undead Warlock
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VerbalGynt 
Posts: 814
Registered: Jun 02
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Date Posted:
5/4 4:42pm
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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Are you sure the pets don't user rear positional styles?
I also gave up trying for the 2h'er pet. Takes a ton more power and time to get one and the 1h'er commander then uses a shield. He does block/parry. It's not alot but I have seen it.
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Lemo
Posts: 2,843
Registered: Dec 01
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Date Posted:
5/4 4:48pm
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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"The only shammie insta is the PBAoE disease which has a -15 STR debuff and snare. The effect is a 3 red circles going large to small."
I'm pretty sure that the attack speed debuff and disease that the fossil seer casts is not identical to any player spell. So I don't think comparing the Shaman's spells to the fossil seer's is appropriate here.
"Are you sure the pets don't user rear positional styles?"
The axe commander and fossil soldiers do. The hammer and sword commanders when attacking from behind will use the poopy anytime style. Only when they are in the (rather large) side positional arc will they use their "good" style. Note that the side arc is so big that you can be almost directly behind the target and still do a side style.
Lemo
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Fleah
Posts: 1,108
Registered: Feb 03
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Date Posted:
5/5 2:59am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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Great post /thanks
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RhoreMjollnirsen
Posts: 688
Registered: Apr 02
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Date Posted:
5/12 10:20am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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Did you ever notice the commander double hitting? I have on occasion seen it swing 1 time but get 2 damage printouts from the single attack. And both would be rated at full damage. I makes me think of a savage double hit, and since savages and BDs came out in the same expansion, it wouldn't surprise me if they borrowed the code from 1 class to use in the pet of another class.
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your-bones-akin
Posts: 95
Registered: Mar 04
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Date Posted:
5/12 11:41am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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heylemo the inventoy thigney was my idea originally
see you get one set of weps for every summon commander spell you get
ie you are lvl 5 BD you have one set of weps and you spec BA once you get lvl 18 you ALREADY have the set from lvl five so you give the warrior one wep fomr the new set and so on .... ie your lvl 50 bd and you have 2 BD guys + your comm and you have four wep sets say you were fighting animals so you give them ALL axes/swords
good idea i say
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palad2
Posts: 417
Registered: Sep 03
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Date Posted:
5/13 7:16am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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I have seen the commander give a double printout of his damage. In both cases that it happened for me, the damages were the same, so it may be a bug. It'd require some testing to find out.
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50 Bonedancer
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Javadran 
Title: SWG Vault Staff
Java the Boardinator
Posts: 9,364
Registered: Apr 02
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Date Posted:
6/22 2:59am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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i found you!
/bump
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Javadran 50 Hunter, Boneles 50 BD - tristan
The rock uncovers you! you are no longer hidden!
"I still think that if you kill a sylvan you should be able to salvage him for wood" -Falder
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battlebovine
Posts: 415
Registered: Jan 03
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Date Posted:
6/22 11:20am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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Any chance we could get this marked into a sticky?
Bov
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Bovineshiddenagain StillGonnaPokeUinTheEye lvl 50 SB
I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down
Bovineshammy Lvl 50 Aug/Mend 42/33 Shaman
Bovinebone lvl 50 BA/Supp Bonedancer
moo
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Javadran
Title: SWG Vault Staff
Java the Boardinator
Posts: 9,364
Registered: Apr 02
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Date Posted:
6/22 11:34am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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ill ask ozelot, i dont think he reads here but he's our mod
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Javadran 50 Hunter, Boneles 50 BD - tristan
The rock uncovers you! you are no longer hidden!
"I still think that if you kill a sylvan you should be able to salvage him for wood" -Falder
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ozelot
Posts: 3,631
Registered: Apr 02
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Date Posted:
6/22 12:04pm
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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I drop by now and then. Asked for it to be stickied, if not - I can always add the info the community thread.
-ozelot
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they bite!
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Krisbot4000
Posts: 2,771
Registered: Jan 04
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Date Posted:
6/22 1:23pm
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
- Date Edited: 6/22 1:26pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Krisbot4000
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/tag
great info
edit: so hammer would seem to be the weapon of choice for rvr then, <3 those snares
edit again: cause i cant freakin spell 
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Muiana Faenari, Valkyn Bonedancer [50], Stormur Vakten [5L2], Banelord [6], Legendary Tailor [1020] http://www.dieselsweeties.com/archive.php?s=1045 =(o_O)= Of Heorot "Wait.....what would evil robot Jesus do?" -Disel Sweeties
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Lemo
Posts: 2,843
Registered: Dec 01
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Date Posted:
6/22 5:40pm
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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My personal thought is that the axe commander is the best choice for RvR, for two reasons:
1.) Slash damage is usually better than crush damage for the purpose of killing the support classes of the other realms.
2.) Evernight is rear positional, so the commander will have the chance of using it on anyone who is running from it. And since the commander is typically (and sensibly) sent to attack a caster or other such support class, who will often run from it, it will often be behind its target. Side positionals won't come up as often.
I will say though that if I'm specifically hunting an assassin in Darkness Falls or whatever, I will try for a hammer commander. The crush damage is preferable.
And since the commander's damage is directly proportional to its weapon speed, with no 2H bonus or slow weapon bonus, there is no real advantage to it having a 2H weapon.
Lemo
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tuppe
Posts: 1,013
Registered: Jun 02
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Date Posted:
6/23 9:39am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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nice info and Kami posted this same test allso to freddys (english EU servers main board)
http://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?t=21606
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50 Bers/ healer/bone/hunter/rm/shaman. EU Pryd
Valewalker TL: "ZERKERS ARE NOT GETTING MORE DAMAGE EVER AGAIN."
Valewalker TL: "You don't like it? Don't pay."
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Cronuss
Posts: 498
Registered: Jul 02
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Date Posted:
6/25 7:56am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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you said the mystics nuke for 300+ damage? how do they suck then? are they very slow or something?
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Gaavsti
Posts: 66
Registered: Oct 02
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Date Posted:
6/25 8:06am
Subject: RE: Pet information (long)
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That damage number was the cap on a gray mob not a level 50+.
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