|
red1
(Registered)
Posts : 599
|
Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
07/08/04 2:15 PM |
Okay,
I've been brainwashed by Lyriss and Saetk's analysis of DW vs envenom, so I've been thinking of switching to a higher DW and lower envenom spec.
Based on Krilek's recent HP calculator post which looks at the hit point benefits of toughness and aug con, it seems that 48 constitution (for a stealther anyway) yields about 175 hit points.
Using rough numbers then, it would appear that the 47 str/con debuff (118 con) would remove about 415 or so hit points, and the 37 str/con debuff (91 con) would remove about 320 hit points; the difference being roughly 100 hit points total.
This seems like a worthwhile trade-off to me especially considering the fact that my higher dual-wield will be hitting more, and perhaps even landing the poison faster/earlier than if I didn't have the higher DW.
My only concern is that the slightly lower venoms might get resisted more, or even a lot more; so my question I guess is, does this happen in rvr? DO people see their 37 str/con and 38 disease getting resisted? Have people done tests with this at all comparing the 37/38 vs the 47/48?
I think it would be interesting.
If you see any flaws in my analysis, or if the numbers don't make sense, please feel free to point that out to me.
Thanks
PS: Anybody know what the exact str/con effect of the disease poison is? To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace. - G. Washington 50 Infiltrator 5L0 1077 LGM Alchemist Bedevere 50 Ice Wizard 4L0 1001 LGM Spellcrafter Bedevere Various other sub-50's |
|
larsonal
(Registered)
Posts : 55
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
07/08/04 2:49 PM |
| Personally for my Inf, I like the poisons, because the HP decrease happens INSTANTLY, so that it makes it much easier to one-shot people such as casters. however, my Inf is only level 32, and in Wilton as of now :) but I have noticed that once I started using the lvl 22 str/con decrease, I have been doing MUCH better in fight, where I can take over 50% of their HP from my PA with the str/con on my main hand, on light tanks and other types. |
|
Krilek
(Registered)
Posts : 453
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
07/08/04 3:26 PM |
Couple points...
HP gained from RAs through Toughness and Aug con cannot be debuffed from the opponent. Regardless of how strong the debuff is, you canot debuff someone below they're natural stats (which is what they're considered, as items and buffs do not affect them). Which means if you happen upon someone that isn't buffed, the str/con debuff 118 debuff will not remove 118 pts of con, ever.
There is still a bit of murkiness on how debuffs work on points from items vs. points from buffs. Generally, it seems to follow debuff effectiveness is 100% vs. points from buffs and bantered at 50% or 75% effective vs. points from items.
Couple of examples...
A) you pop SB #1425 with your str/con debuff while he's fully botted out. That means he has +155 to both str and con from buffs. Your debuff would function fully against him, removing 118 pts of his str and con.
B) you pop the same SB with your str/con debuff while he's running with only healer buffs. That means he has only +62 to str and con. Here's where it gets fuzzy. The first 62 pts of your debuff function at 100% to remove his buffed points. However, the remaining 56 points start to chew into his points from items, but at a decreased effectiveness (again, it's debated as to what the decrease is)
C) you pop the same poor SB AGAIN with your str/con debuff, but this time, he's unbuffed. Your entire 118pts in debuff are chewing into his item points only, and depending on whatever the reduction rate may be, the 118 may be enough to eat up all 75 pts from his SC set. The 91 pt str/con does not seem to be able to (though it still makes a sizable dent).
D) the SB is completely demoralized and confused, so he comes out to play in RvR in his PvE gear. He's only got +34 con on his suit and, you guessed it, he gets hit again with the 118 str/con. Once the 34 points from his armor/items are eaten up, the rest of the debuff will not affect his constitution at all. Maybe it was overkill, but he really wasn't prepared to fight, though, was he?
Also, the amount of hp gained by aug con varies between classes. While an inf will only gain 175ish points with aug con 5, tanks and light tanks (Armsmen and Mercs for example) will gain about double that (actually I'm pretty sure that they're gain rate is exactly double, but I have yet to get access to an RR5 armsman or merc on pend to test. I know infs get 3.625 hp per con point at 50, and it looks like tanks are 7.25, but nothing is certain till you break out the numbers)
 I am a Gauntlet Adventurer.
I strive to improve my living conditions by hoarding gold, food, and sometimes keys and potions. I love adventure, fighting, and particularly winning - especially when there's a prize at stake. I occasionally get lost inside buildings and can't find the exit. I need food badly. What Video Game Character Are You?
|
|
|
red1
(Registered)
Posts : 599
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
07/08/04 5:09 PM |
Okay - thanks for that lengthy response Krilek. I think I understand how it works. I don't think it would ever be a waste, then, to use the str/con debuff (even the highest level one) as 95% of the toons in rvr probably have constitution on their suit maxxed (+74/75).
That being said, what are your thoughts on the 37 str/con vs the 47 str/con debuff, given the make-up of the average toon you run across and its affect on them? Is it worth giving up some DW for the higher str/con? What is the exact trade off?
Also, what is your experience with resists? Does the 37 get resisted more often than the 47? And lastly, what effect (if any) does the disease have on str/con?
Thanks again for your insight.
To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace. - G. Washington 50 Infiltrator 5L0 1077 LGM Alchemist Bedevere 50 Ice Wizard 4L0 1001 LGM Spellcrafter Bedevere Various other sub-50's |
|
Lyriss
(Ranger Mentor)
Posts : 1770
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
07/08/04 7:00 PM |
the difference between 37 and 47 str/con is roungly 100 hits, you decide :)
from just personal experence, informal, but i personally feel it's fairly accurate, it seems that poisions fire at your level as far as resists.. I wouldn't say i'm resisted more than oh.. about 30% of the time.
assuming your going with a spec something like ..
50 thrust 34 stealth 39 crit 39 dw you can still manage to get the 37 str con.. giving you an overall dw% of 61%
if you drop it so you can get the last str con debuff..
going for 32 env, you'll have 33 DW for an overall 56% chance to dw, with that extra roughly 100 damage from str con, assuming you miss pa/not using pa.
one important thing to note with cs users is that if you pa your target, and it does, say, 400 damage. and they have 1000 hits, leaving them with 600 hits, unless that str/con is going to rip more hits than pa, it basicalyl does nothing, unless they are being healed during the fight, since the con is taken off the top. so, for instance, if you pa'd for 100, but the str/con ripped 200 hits, then you'd remove a total of 200 hits, not 300, it's an either or. now, i know pa's can miss, so it's still usefull, but how much really depends on your own opinion on it. /shrug i dunno if you were asking for another opinion other than krilek, but there's my 2cp. All paths of glory lead but to the grave. |
|
saetk
(Registered)
Posts : 680
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
07/09/04 2:45 AM |
thank you so much, krilek. i've been watching hits ripped vs str/con debuff used on my new inf for a little while now, nothing so official as a test, but i've been getting odd findings. your post explains them perfectly.
what i was seeing was, no matter what the delve on the str/con debuff, ranging from 54 (a spell cast on me) to 91 (some idiot ns in leirvik who specced high enough for 37 envenom), i never lost more than about 95 hits off the top unbuffed. on the other hand, with a con buff from a friendly friar i got ripped for closer to 200 hits by a reasonably low str/con debuff. even worse was when i was fully buffed. it all makes perfect sense now.
so.. hits from gear are not ripped. ra's are not ripped. buffs and con from gear are ripped, though at differing rates of return. natural con cannot be ripped. very interesting. thanks again, krilek. ------------------------------------- kitsune.rydia.net daoc.nisrv.com/modules.php?name=Weapon_Style_Faq |
|
Lyriss
(Ranger Mentor)
Posts : 1770
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
07/09/04 9:21 AM |
might help explain why running unbuffed with good gear i do just as well as alot of buffed up infs i see.. they are getting hit alot harder by the same debuff. All paths of glory lead but to the grave. |
|
saetk
(Registered)
Posts : 680
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
04/09/05 1:40 PM |
this is an ancient post, but very important. it took me several hours to finally find this, but i definitely think it's worth it, so..
/bump
pay particular attention to krilek's post. ------------------------------------- kitsune.rydia.net daoc.nisrv.com/modules.php?name=Weapon_Style_Faq |
|
Krilock
(Registered)
Posts : 23
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
04/11/05 5:38 AM |
ok but what about the other half of that poison? the str debuff? almost everyone has a buffbot now and if they dont i dont need my poisons /shrug.
i understand there isnt much of a hitpoint reduction difference between the 2 str/con debuffs but how much of a dmg output reduction is there between them, be it slash,crush,thrust has anyone done any tests? most people i fight use slash so ill never give up my 47debuff but i thought if anyone could toss up a site or a post it would help a few others
............... Cerem 48inf percival |
|
Fiorio
(Registered)
Posts : 165
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
04/11/05 8:28 AM |
what about the crafted magical poisions. that high alchemist can make? i nvr heard anyone use them. what are they, what they do? I kill people for money. you my friend. i kill you for nothin >>>>------------------------------------> Fiorio La Spada RR3LX Infl . Lancelot Haldiri Of Lorien RR3LX scout . Lancelot PerforateArtery.com |
|
saetk
(Registered)
Posts : 680
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
04/11/05 10:14 PM |
as i understand it, the debuff works the same on all stats. str from buffs are ripped at delve rate, str from gear is ripped at diminished returns, and base str cannot be ripped.
i can't say for certain how true this will hold to all situations, but when i tested weapon stat increases in correlation with damage increases, i saw about a .5% increase in damage per point of weapon stat. (61 weapon stat created a 30% increase in damage before resists and abs.) if debuffs just reverse the increase, then the 118 str/con debuff should decrease damage by 59% before resists and abs.
for instance: you have 26% slash resist and 10% abs. your opponent swings for 200. your abs drops that to 180, and your resist knocks it down to 133. you land the 118 str/con debuff on him/her. next swing is 82. abs takes it down to 74. resist takes it down to 54.
of course, most people swing for 200 unbuffed, anyways (before resists and abs), so chances are the debuff's not going to bring an opponent's damage down that far. still, it can have a profound impact on damage from pure str damage types when your opponent's buffed.
as for magical poisons: there are two kinds. one is an attack speed debuff. it doesn't stack with achilles heel. the other is an end cost increase. don't know too much about them, since i run a low envenom spec. ------------------------------------- kitsune.rydia.net daoc.nisrv.com/modules.php?name=Weapon_Style_Faq |
|
Nfrad
(Registered)
Posts : 733
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
04/19/05 5:26 PM |
| I believe there is also a dex/qui debuff...not positive on that tho |
|
Edelith
(Registered)
Posts : 325
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
04/19/05 9:12 PM |
Hmmmm... I got a quicky question. O.k. Let's say I hit somebody with the level 47 str/con debuffs, they are unbuffed so it starts to chew into their +con from their gear. And then I'm a slash infy with malice + battler and wow malice goes off so that would be -whatever from the str/con poison and then another 25% from all thier stats. Would that start to chew into their base stats, or would it bring their stats str/con down to their base level?
Thanks |
|
saetk
(Registered)
Posts : 680
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
04/19/05 10:40 PM |
no, it wouldn't debuff them passed their base stats, as far as i know. i haven't tested this myself, but everything i've seen thus far says that base stats can't be debuffed. ------------------------------------- kitsune.rydia.net daoc.nisrv.com/modules.php?name=Weapon_Style_Faq |
|
cohac silverfoxq
(Its just a postcount)
Posts : -996
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
04/22/05 1:07 AM |
ive been woundering over sumthing about vamps...will the str/con debuff poisons decrease their bonus points? ************************** Found me old account |
|
Cerem
(Registered)
Posts : 41
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
04/23/05 2:39 AM |
| I was camping poc when a tiarna ran up we jumped him he hit us with some kinda red mist that debuffed me so bad it told me i was encumbered and couldnt move sooo some things with debuff base str im new to the arty ml thing so i dont know what he used anyone know? |
|
Astardoli
(Registered)
Posts : 23
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
04/24/05 3:21 AM |
his malice's axe proced on you, 25% decrease to all stats 6 50 mids- tristan- too many to list rr5L8 inf lancelot- Serafe(finsihing GSV) rr4L4 inf lancelot- Ezo(wtb cold LG set) rr4/3 paly/wiz lancelot- Nehova/Dkt(just there) rr5L8 sb merlin- Shadowborne(retired) |
|
Machu
(Registered)
Posts : 36
|
RE: Str/Con Debuff, Hit Point Reduction, Resists - all questions about poison |
04/24/05 6:35 PM |
Nfrad, there is a dex/qui debuff but I believe it is just a charge. As far as the "special" alchemy pots... I use the endurance cost pot quite frequently against melee enemies. Atm, my envenom is only 40 after rr and item points. There is a set of "special" pots at level 40 and same set just stronger at level 50. Machu - 50 Inf RR9 Igraine Malo - 50 Pally Igraine Vexatio - 50 Sorceror Igraine |
