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Tazilon
(Shade Guru)
Posts : 2437
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MOP5 vs Viper3/MOP2 Revisited |
04/24/05 2:56 PM |
This will teach me to listen to Mythic...
No, actually it will teach me to misinterpret things Mythic words poorly. Back in 2003 (April, I think), Mythic spoke about Crit damage in a Grab Bag. They said crits averaged 30% (in RVR) of base damage.
Me, being used to terms like Base Damage and Style Damage thought they meant Base Damage. They didn't. What they meant was "total damage". Total damage was used as the "base" to calculate crit damage.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr
I posted on VN last week and someone said I had looked at it wrong. So I spent the last 3-4 days logging all my fights and checking out the results of my crits. Crits DO include Style Damage in the number used to calculate crit damage.
SO...
Knowing that, I now need to look at MOP5 vs Viper3/MOP2 again. I have no idea how this will turn out so pull up a seat and join the fun.
Since both sides of the equation have randomness built into them, we will model 1 fight then look at 100 of them to obtain a usable average. Viper has the effects of resists and purges which must be averaged. MOP has the randomness of both the crit itself and the amount of damage which must be averaged.
THE FIGHT MODEL:
8 Main Hand Hits (Growth Rates):
2 Garotte (.75)
2 Achilles Heels (1.03)
1 Diamondback (.87)
1 Hammie (1.15)
1 Leaper (1.33)
1 Rib Separation (1.32)
4 Off Hand Swings
3 hit, 1 missed/blocked/parried/evaded etc
Proc and Haste Effects: Irrelevant. They will be the same for both sides of the comparison so we will ignore them.
Main Hand Swing Speed: 1.74
CS Spec: 44+15
Average Growth Rate: 1.0287
Unstyled Damage Cap: 225
Average Main Hand Base Damage: 200
Average Style Damage Percent: .4694
Average TOTAL Damage per Swing: 294
Average Off Hand base Damage: 125
Average Viper Tick: 64
Ticks per Fight (not counting resists and purges): 4
PA Rate: 20%
Average PA: 600
Enduring Poison, ML3 used.
Average Damage from Main Hand Crit: 294*.3 = 88.2
Average Damage from Off Hand Crit: 125*.3 = 37.5
Average Damage from PA Crit: 600*.3 = 180
MOP5
(remember, we are looking at 100 fights so all the randomness is smoothed)
MOP5 = 49% Crit Rate
MAIN HAND:
Number of Crits = 800*.49 = 392
Damage = 392*88.2 = 34,574
Average Main Hand Crit Damage in Model Fight: 345.74
OFF HAND:
Number of Crits: 300*.49 = 147
Damage = 147*37.5 = 5513
Average Off Hand Crit Damage in Model Fight: 55.13
PA:
Number of Crits: 9
Added PA Crit Damage: (180-88.2)*9 = 826.2
TOTAL CRIT DAMAGE:
34574 + 5513 + 826 = 40,913
Average Total Crit Damage in Model Fight: 409.13 (409)
MOP3/VIPER2
MOP2 = 19% Crit Rate
MAIN HAND:
Number of Crits = 800*.19 = 152
Damage = 152*88.2 = 13,406
Average Main Hand Crit Damage in Model Fight: 134.06
OFF HAND:
Number of Crits: 300*.19 = 57
Damage = 57*37.5 = 2137
Average Off Hand Crit Damage in Model Fight: 21.37
PA:
Number of Crits: 3
Added PA Crit Damage: (180-88.2)*3 = 275.4
DOTS:
(This gets complicated so try to bear with me.)
Assuming 20% Body Resists, our DOT gets resisted in 20 fights. Enduring Poison allows us to reapply the DOT in 10 of those fights. However, we lose another 2 due to the resists.
Thus, in 12 fights, we get no DOT whatsoever. In 88 fights we get our DOT running but we have to see how many Ticks we get:
Purges come into play. In rare instances, someone will Purge a DOT. In more frequent cases, someone will Purge a Stun or Enervate, taking out the DOT along with it. No matter what, recognition of a Purge situation and reaction to that recognition means we will see tend to see Purges occur later in a fight rather than sooner. For this simulation, we will assume we see Purges in 20% of our fights. We will distribute those Purges equally amongst the DOT Ticks, but reduce the number which occur between the 1st and 2nd Tick to reflect the recognition and reaction factor.
88*.20 = 17 fights with Purges
Purge after 1 tick (26%): 5 fights
Purge after 2 ticks (37%): 6 fights
Purge after 3 ticks (37%): 6 fights
Enduring Poison helps again, though.
2 of the 1 tick purges will get reapplied.
3 of the 2 tick purges will get reapplied.
3 of the 3 tick purges will get reapplied.
This gives us the following breakdown:
Fights with 4 Ticks: 71
Fights with 3 Ticks: 9
Fights with 2 Ticks: 5
Fights with 1 Tick: 3
Fights with 0 ticks: 12
Total Ticks: 324
Damage from Viper: 20,736
Average Viper Damage in Model Fight: 207.36
TOTAL DAMAGE for Viper3/MOP2:
Main Hands Crits: 13,406
Off Hand Crits: 2,137
PAs: 275
Viper: 20,736
TOTAL: 36,554
Average per Model Fight: 365.54 (366)
RESULTS:
MOP5: 40,913 Total Damage: 409 increased damage per fight
Viper3/MOP2: 36, 554 Total Damage: 366 increased damage per fight
The misunderstanding on Mythic's choice of words completely reverses the results.
If only Base Damage was used for Crits:
MOP5: 29,859 Total Damage: 299 increased damage per fight
Viper3/MOP2: 32,268 Total Damage: 323 increased damage per fight
What does this mean?
MOP5 is better than Viper3/MOP2 in terms of consistent damage application. Because there is a large degree of randomness in both Crits and Viper you must take the averages at face value. The times you only get low value crits or less than expected numbers of crits in a fight will be offset by the times your DOT gets purged or resisted.
Additional considerations:
No matter how good you are at changing weapons during and between fights, there WILL be times you end up whacking on someone with no Poison on your weapon. MOP5 wins hands down here.
There will also be times where you want to "fire and forget". That is, you hit and get the DOT going then leave the scene. Or perhaps, you are hurt, see incoming enemies, etc and decide to get out of Dodge before your opponent is dead. In both these types of scenarios, Viper3/MOP2 gives you a better chance for a kill after you leave the fight.
Overall, however, I'm changing my RA recommendation from Viper3/MOP2 to MOP5.
Tazilon Midbane, 50 NS RR10 ML10, PNG [Lions of Lamfhota] CANCELLED ACCOUNT due to Mythic's NERFING of Shades in 1.82 |
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Squeekz
()
Posts : 698
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RE: MOP5 vs Viper3/MOP2 Revisited |
04/24/05 9:30 PM |
And to think this whole time I was right and Taz was wrong :P woot lol
Glad you put the time in to figure this out Taz :) you rule |
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Dalnoth
(Registered)
Posts : 48
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RE: MOP5 vs Viper3/MOP2 Revisited |
04/25/05 5:46 PM |
Thanks for the update Taz. I almost finally respec'd for lifebane and viper too. ;p
Dal
Guin-RR8L4 |
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demonikeen
(Master Shade)
Posts : 1437
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RE: MOP5 vs Viper3/MOP2 Revisited |
04/25/05 10:32 PM |
| if crits didn't include style damage you wouldn't see those nice big crits off of pa. |
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Tazilon
(Shade Guru)
Posts : 2437
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RE: MOP5 vs Viper3/MOP2 Revisited |
04/26/05 7:53 PM |
PAs are a whole different animal though. Their damage formulas is totally different than the style damage formula. Tazilon Midbane, 50 NS RR10 ML10, PNG [Lions of Lamfhota] CANCELLED ACCOUNT due to Mythic's NERFING of Shades in 1.82 |
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Faate
(Registered)
Posts : 68
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RE: MOP5 vs Viper3/MOP2 Revisited |
04/26/05 8:29 PM |
Yeah Taz you have your average pa as
Average Pa 600*3=180
PA:
Number of Crits: 9
Added PA Crit Damage: (180-88.2)*9 = 826.2
that is with 44+15 correct ? so with 50 cs how much of a difference are we looking at ...not sure how you got the Pa average crit of 600 ( did ya just chain pa your bot or a friend hehehe yeah friend ) "say hello to the sandman for me" Faate Shadowsaint 50 Nightshade RR4L9 Spymaster Proud Member of the Devr'im Army of Nimue Astennu Urthazeli 46 Inconnu Infiltrator RR2L8 Member of The Black Network of Percival Deadshott 24 Infiltrator RR1L4 Member of The Black Hand of Gareth |
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Lodorian
(Registered)
Posts : 24
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RE: MOP5 vs Viper3/MOP2 Revisited |
08/01/05 7:10 AM |
"Total Ticks: 324
Damage from Viper: 20,736" = 64 X 324 but with viper 3, you dot hits for 128 X 324....41 472 or 414 average
so Viper3/MoP2 >>>> MoP 5 if you have 50 in evenom |
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flyingtaco
(Registered)
Posts : 638
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RE: MOP5 vs Viper3/MOP2 Revisited |
08/01/05 5:05 PM |
But then you also have the times people have the extra body resist from buffs. Crits will always be around, but Viper will not because of the times you have no poison on your weapon, or you are in a big fight, which means pretty much every time you go keep taking or roaming with a group. The more you are doing with chatting, paying more attention to the enviroment etc, you are less likely to remember to put your Lifebane back on.
I have to go with Taz now that he's gone over the figures again, and when it comes to it go with MOP5. Katachia - 50 Eldritch Glastonbury Belyand - 30 Battle Bard Glastonbury Kotoria - 18 Sorc Excalibur Katachia - 16 Minstrel Excalibur |
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Tazilon
(Shade Guru)
Posts : 2437
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RE: MOP5 vs Viper3/MOP2 Revisited |
08/01/05 6:28 PM |
Lodorian,
While it is true your DOT hit for 128 per tick, it is just as true the Viper3 only causes 64 points per tick. The first 64 points of damage you get each tick is from the DOT itself. Viper 3 adds 64 per tick more - not 128.
Either way will outperform the other way in specific cases. But, overall, MOP5 will do more damage fight to fight.
I used my personal PAs for the average. And the number I used is actually too low. 600 is more often the low end of my PAs, not the average. If I get less than 600 on a PA, I pout for a few minutes. =P
Each point of CS raises your PA *CAP* by 9 points, so you figure it raises the average by ~4.5 points. So lifting CS 6 points would raise your PA average by about 27 points before you factor in crits. Tazilon Midbane, 50 NS RR10 ML10, PNG [Lions of Lamfhota] CANCELLED ACCOUNT due to Mythic's NERFING of Shades in 1.82 |
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