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Author	Topic: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
Swiftdeathz collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,522 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/24/03 4:03am Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	Of course I'm not right about everything... But I'm right about this topic... Some people are too blind with their hatrid to see anything else though... THAT'S the sad part... -----signature----- Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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DAoC_Guy collection \| wishlist Posts: 856 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/24/03 9:42am Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	>>So far, I've predicted about everything you have done so far. Why don't you surprise me?....Slitz >>Of course I'm not right about everything... But I'm right about this topic... Some people are too blind with their hatrid to see anything else though... THAT'S the sad part... Damn, was hoping he would surprise me and actually say something that would disprove one of the many points I have made. I even went to the trouble of making an easy fill in the blank thingy for him too:( Well, can't make it any easier than that. It's obvious Swift is unable to refute a thing, and is only posting to be posting and making claims he has no way of backing up. So, moving on... Here is some of the conditions that has been discussed to have about as fair of ranger/hunter comparrisons as posisble: Copy to pendragon. Wear non SCed, non alchemized 99qual armor. Same with weapons. No jewelry. Respec all RAs so neither will have any passives. Have similar melee skill. A 39 pierce/blades and 22 cd is right at the same points spent as 45 spear. I'll go 36ish PF, and the Hunter will go similar in beastcraft. WIll do buffed and unbuffed tests. Think that will cover about all the bases as possible. Anyone (especially anyone who actually has an idea or point) is welcomed to post. BTW, nice logs and facts you have posted Swift! Very productive! Hehehe -----signature----- Slitz InCognito (Galahad) RR10 Ranger 31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20) PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2 BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Swiftdeathz collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,522 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/24/03 10:01am Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long) - Date Edited: 7/24/03 10:15am (1 edits total) Edited By: Swiftdeathz
	You win, I lose... but in that encounter we had... I won, you lost... BTW, I love how you change your opinion when you encountered me and had the opportunity to flame me and get all this attention... Slitz quote: "I still feel Rangers have a slight advatange over hunters in melee, but it's pretty slight and not big. I can't remember ever losing to a Hunter in straight melee combat if we were on equal footing as far as buffs and IP and AP are concerned." pot, kettle, melt -----signature----- Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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Tutompop collection \| wishlist Posts: 44 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/24/03 2:02pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long) - Date Edited: 7/24/03 2:14pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Tutompop
	Allo everybody! I just couldn't keep out of the fun anymore. I read the post about etc etc.. (insert refute here)and cracked up. The points made are indeed true! However, I doubt anybody was ever arguing they were false. Point 1: Hunters gain more per hit and loses more per hit than rangers. Ummmm,I don't believe anybody argued that point. Seems like a silly fact to prove since nobody argued otherwise. 2handed weapons have always had a slower swing time than 1handed ones in a trade off for more damage. (The original point was that against high evade/block opponents hunters suffer more than a ranger because of the slow speed+failed strikes) Point 2: Rangers hit more often for less damage but lose less than if a hunter were to miss. Again, seems like a moot point. I don't remember swift or anyone else for that matter arguing that rangers didn't swing fast for less damage in fact I believe he is in agreement with you. /shudders Point 3: Hunter pets hit less than their master. Tis true! lower level pets hit less often than their master due to level and style bonus's. However, everybody knew that...even swift pointed it out that pets are an "uncertain" benefit in melee. non-style attacks+lower level = less hits. Point 4: Armor procs 10% of the time it is hit. Ya and? I believe Slitz said it was documented on the herald. The logs didn't prove/disprove this and nobody said it wasn't true. Your logs didn't have anything to do with this fact. However, I do see the worry about more hits = more procs but if the armor procs 10% of the time... 90% of the time it isn't. On a side note, hunter/ranger melee shouldn't account procs as that is a HUGE variable where as it could go off 5 times in a row or none at all. Point 5: Ranger hits more often than ranger+pet combined again... slower swing on hunter/low level+unstyled attacks compared to the rangers styled quick attacks= more hits. This is more or less a combination of 1+2+3 which were all facts that nobody argued in the first place. Point 6: More often a weapon hits the more it procs. DUH!!! who said it didn't? I mean come on! what a silly thing to point out. Point 7: More often armor is hit the more often it procs. Same as point 6 but I still believe procs are a huge variable that shouldn't be included in a "comparison". It may be because Swift is over this whole thing or because the "proven" facts are so well known that it seems silly to point them out let alone bother refuting. Personally, I want to see these new logs Slitz posted about (unbuffed/non alched/no scing/no jewelry/no RAs). I would also hope that both parties will use weapons that the other armor is neutral to or that both armor types are resistant to. Warex 50th BD Galahad Zaphrix 50th Hunter Galahad Karthern 50th Warrior Galahad
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Melt304 collection \| wishlist Title: Camelot Vault Staff Solo Ninja~~ Posts: 15,034 Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 7/24/03 4:44pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	"pot, kettle, melt " Can i be the pot and you the kettle then? -----signature----- -¤<Code 42>-¤-<Brute Force>-¤-<Stout>-¤ http://gimpchimp.etilader.com/s.php?u=Melt
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Swiftdeathz collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,522 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/24/03 5:19pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	See you just can't resist yourself... so sad... -----signature----- Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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Melt304 collection \| wishlist Title: Camelot Vault Staff Solo Ninja~~ Posts: 15,034 Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 7/24/03 9:57pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	Bet that you post again... -----signature----- -¤<Code 42>-¤-<Brute Force>-¤-<Stout>-¤ http://gimpchimp.etilader.com/s.php?u=Melt
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DAoC_Guy collection \| wishlist Posts: 856 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/24/03 11:10pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	>>Point 1: Hunters gain more per hit and loses more per hit than rangers.....Ummmm,I don't believe anybody argued that point. >>Point 2: Rangers hit more often for less damage but lose less than if a hunter were to miss......Again, seems like a moot point. I agree, the above should be a moot point. But here is Swift's take on it: >>So even though when they get evaded against a Hunter (which hunters are lucky to get 1-2 evades per fight) or missed, then it won't hurt them as much since they swing so fast and make up the lost dmg very fast... The hunter on the other hand with a miss or evade with their SLOW 2-hander hurts them alot more since it takes them alot longer to make up the lost damage... >>the Ranger can still excel against these classes because although their defense is only slightly higher, their misses/evades/blocks/parries won't hurt them as much because of the speed and huge dmg output from dual wielding fast weapons that has a dmg add... See, Swift has failed many times to realize the basic concept here...Ranger hits more often for less, Hunter hits less often for more. Therefore Hunter gains more per hit, loses more per miss/evade/fumble...Ranger gains less per hit, loses less per miss/fumble/evade. Therefore, it evens out. To understand this, you must understand points 1 and 2, and since Swift says he has disputed these claims, he therefore must have disproved the common sense points of 1 and 2. Point 3: Hunter pets hit less than their master......However, everybody knew that Everyone but Swift apparently Since hunter swings less than half as fast as the Ranger, for Swifts statement (below) to be true, the Hunters pet must hit as much or more often than his master. >>Ranger has the advantage since he procs more and ranger/hunter trigger defensive procs on opponent about the same... >>Point 4: Armor procs 10% of the time it is hit......Ya and? For any of swifts arguements to hold water, he had to either disprove the baove points, or disprove that one. >>Point 5: Ranger hits more often than ranger+pet combined.....This is more or less a combination of 1+2+3 which were all facts that nobody argued in the first place. See above Swift quotes, he seems to think otherwise. >>Point 6: More often a weapon hits the more it procs....DUH!!! Like before, for any of Swift's self proclaimed refutes he made to have really happened, this is one of the points he would have had to disprove. For you and I, it seems really silly and a given point I agree...for some people though.... >>Point 7: More often armor is hit the more often it procs..... Same as point 6 See my above comment. >>It may be because Swift is over this whole thing There's nothing here to "be over", just talk of Hunter/Ranger comparrisons. Swift is obsessed with the fact I mentioned his playing style is lame in another post, and is still tickled pink he was able to take a beating in the back while his fellow mids helped kill me. I think the problem is he isn't over that, therefore is having such a problem in this post. >>or because the "proven" facts are so well known that it seems silly to point them out let alone bother refuting. >>I thought the same thing, until Swift posted he refuted such basic knowledge... Personally, I want to see these new logs Slitz posted about (unbuffed/non alched/no scing/no jewelry/no RAs). Yes, me too. That is about as fair a setup I can come up with. I'm sure Swift will "refute" them though. On a personal note, I have entered the world of the employed again this week and I am working some really long and late hours. Dunno when I can set this up, hopefully this weekend if I get a break. >>I would also hope that both parties will use weapons that the other armor is neutral to or that both armor types are resistant to. I will use pierce, and will ask that the hunter will use slash. Thanks for pointing that out. -----signature----- Slitz InCognito (Galahad) RR10 Ranger 31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20) PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2 BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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DAoC_Guy collection \| wishlist Posts: 856 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/24/03 11:25pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	>>You win, I lose... but in that encounter we had... I won, you lost... The one where I was beating on your back while the other Mids helped kill me? Yes, very impressive. Funny how you try to take sole credit for that though, instead of sharing the glory with your fellow mids that, you know, actually fought. >>BTW, I love how you change your opinion when you encountered me and had the opportunity to flame me and get all this attention... Think you are a bit conceded. If attention on these boards is what I wanted, then my post count would be similar to yours, instead of 1/17th of yours. If I wanted to flame people, I would have alot of prior flame posts instead of basically none until I posted how I thought it was sad you and people like you had what I felt was such a lame style. It was you who kept trying to bring that old post up in my new post, which had to do with fight logs. You keep accusing me of stuff you are actually doing. I believe you need the attention here, not I. How many of your posts have I jumped on crying about you on? How many of mine have you? I rest my case. >>Slitz quote: "I still feel Rangers have a slight advatange over hunters in melee, but it's pretty slight and not big. That is correct. >>I can't remember ever losing to a Hunter in straight melee combat if we were on equal footing as far as buffs and IP and AP are concerned." Never met a Hunter on Galahad who has IP and AP3, and doubt there is one. I've never lost to a Hunter in straight melee when I have IP and AP3 and am fully buffed. Have never met a Hunter with all 3 of them (fully buffed, IP and AP3) at the same time either. Keep digging through all the posts I have made though, you seem to be getting quite desparate now Nice logs btw Swift -----signature----- Slitz InCognito (Galahad) RR10 Ranger 31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20) PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2 BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Swiftdeathz collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,522 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/25/03 8:13am Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	so sad... oh yeah +1 The only thing good about this is how much my post count is increasing... I may get the 5 blue stars after all... -----signature----- Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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DAoC_Guy collection \| wishlist Posts: 856 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/25/03 11:12am Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	Looks like Metus has you figured out, he called that one. And like you yourself said, you lost this one. You have been and still are unable to refute a thing. Therefore, like you admitted, the only thing you are able to do is increase your post count. Keep up the good work! Nice logs btw Swift -----signature----- Slitz InCognito (Galahad) RR10 Ranger 31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20) PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2 BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Swiftdeathz collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,522 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/25/03 11:23am Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	/farm -----signature----- Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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Placibo collection \| wishlist Posts: 698 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/25/03 1:10pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	"See, Swift has failed many times to realize the basic concept here...Ranger hits more often for less, Hunter hits less often for more. Therefore Hunter gains more per hit, loses more per miss/evade/fumble...Ranger gains less per hit, loses less per miss/fumble/evade. Therefore, it evens out. To understand this, you must understand points 1 and 2, and since Swift says he has disputed these claims, he therefore must have disproved the common sense points of 1 and 2." my turn.. Ranger hits more often for less - yes Hunter hits less often for more - yes Therefore Hunter gains more PER hit - yes loses more per miss/evade/fumble - yes Ranger gains less YES hit - yes loses less per miss/fumble/evade - yes Therefore, it evens out - NO NO NO NO NO NO example to draw from: Hunter melee 100 swings lets say.. compared to a Rangers 100 swings.. compare the total dmg.. Hunters will be lower.. the miss/fumble rates for both classes should be equal but the evade rates will not.. the time in between the miss/fumble/evade is greater for hunters then rangers.. 3-4 swings a rangers does during the time a hunter takes to recover from miss/fumble/evade is more dmg then 1-2 swings from spear.. so they do not even out.. the half swing a hunter does while a ranger has miss/fumble/evade is by far less dmging to the ranger..
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Swiftdeathz collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,522 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/25/03 1:53pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	Placibo me and others have pointed this out for him many a time... He's to consumed with his own self love to realize anything that is brought up and will always say he's right... Talking to a brick wall often brings similair results.. -----signature----- Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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DAoC_Guy collection \| wishlist Posts: 856 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/25/03 8:53pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	>>example to draw from: Hunter melee 100 swings lets say.. compared to a Rangers 100 swings.. compare the total dmg.. Hunters will be lower.. I don't know if I am reading this right. You are saying 100 spear swings from a Hunter will yield less damage than 100 ranger swings? I must not be reading that right, because that suggests Rangers hit harder than Hunters. >>the miss/fumble rates for both classes should be equal but the evade rates will not.. That is correct. Ranger will evade 5% more attacks (damage) than the Hunter will. The hunter pet, which as swift pointed out, gives the ranger a 50% penalty for multiple opponents..therefore this actually swings in the Hunters favors. Due to the pet, Ranger will have the worse defense of the 2 in a one on one fight. >>3-4 swings a rangers does during the time a hunter takes to recover from miss/fumble/evade is more dmg then 1-2 swings from spear.. so they do not even out.. the half swing a hunter does while a ranger has miss/fumble/evade is by far less dmging to the ranger.. Very good point, and something I will be happy to address. First I would like to thank you for actually making a point and not just claiming you did. Asides from the fact that the Ranger will recieve 5% less damage due to higher evade rate, we agree that the miss/fumble/2/3 of the evades are identical...minus the pet. Now, if ranger and hunter are using both 16.5 dps weapons, the damage output from both classes remain the same regardless of which is swinging faster/slower. DPS is just that, damage per second...regardless of speeds, same DPS weapons will put out the exact same damage over time. Now, there are other variables to consider. Ranger will get extra damage because of duel wield and damage add. First, the duel wield: If a Hunter goes 45 weapon and Ranger goes, say, 39 weapon and 22 CD that will be approximately same points spent for melee. Ranger gets 25% base chance to double swing, and with 22 CD and +11 from items (RR1), he will have a 33*.75=24.75. Add that to the base of 25%, you get 49.75% to double tap. That gives the Ranger essentialy 50% more damage output. And damage add: Add the effects of damage add, which is about 15% of base damage, you have 65% more damage output. Now, tha tis if no styles are used. You add in style damage from a basic fight, the offhand swings and the damage add for the offhand swings are not as high. There is no exact science for that atm, therefore some good testing would be in order. But if say style damage is about 30% of the damage from the fight, then you can see the duel wield advantage is reduced quite a bit from being 50% of the total damage done. Okay, even with all of the above the Ranger still has better melee than the Hunter. Now comes the pet damage, and the additional 10% damage hunters gets from using two handed spear. How does the math on this average out? Need to do more duels to find out. From my experience, both classes are very similar in melee output. Unlike certain others, I have alot of experience in this and not just disagreeing with anything that may hurt in a quest to get a boost to my class. Bottom line is this: Due to the multiple attacker penalties introduced with the Hunters pet, Hunter will be defensively superior to a ranger. Regardless of speed of a weapon, as long as the DPS and quality os the same the damage per second will be equal. -----signature----- Slitz InCognito (Galahad) RR10 Ranger 31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20) PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2 BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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