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Topic:
Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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Doc_McAlister
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Date Posted:
7/21/03 9:17am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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Disclaimer: I only read the first page, if some info was given later that I missed my apologies. These are simply my base responces, not specific responces to any person.
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A basic checklist I go down looking at ranger/hunter melee logs:
1) Was the pet buffed?
If the pet was buffed its nearly a given that the log was generated from an arranged test. A buffed pet in real RVR takes the hunters points in stealth and throws them in the crapper. Now a buffed pet is easily worthe 2 or 3 unbuffed ones, so some botting hunters have taken to setting up at a Realm Portal or PK with a buffed puppy up and ready. But anywhere besides those small areas pup will not be buffed (not even with the hunters own buff). Therefore, logs using a buffed pup are inherently skewed in the hunters favor due to a circumstance that almost never happens in practice.
2) How many spec points did each combatant put in melee?
Many people **assume** that because a ranger has 2 lines they "spend more" in melee. This is rarely the case due to dminishing returns. Getting two lines to spec 35, for example, costs less than getting one line to 50. Overspeccing hits diminishing returns, so points from items on the dual 35's give more effect than points from items on the 50. Same with the first few Realm Ranks.
Examples:
50 (61) spear
32 beast
spec points = 1801
39(50) weapon
26(37) cdw
36 Path
Spec points = 1794
In the example specs above a ranger has **more** spec points left to spend on bow and stealth than the hunter does .. especially if he auto trains. The ranger spec can even be tuned for specific realm ranks since points over 50 hit deminishing returns.
These logs did not give full spec info for the combatants so we have no idea their comparative melee point expenditure.
3) What passive RA's do they have?
I know that stardoag has lots of passive RA"s, MoP, dodger, HP increasers, etc. What does his opponent have? According to Mythic, the dodger RA is a multiplicative RA thus it benefits characters with higher base evade more ... ie rangers greater than hunters.
4) Are they in equivalent equip?
5) Are they the same level?
50 vs 51
6) Where are the Relics?
Someone on page one said Stardoag had a 10% relic bonus I believe?
7) How would they stand up vs some other class?
This is a real big one in the hunter vs ranger equation.
Vs shields:
Duel wielding halves ones opponent's block rates.
Pup adds a *small* bonus to-hit which may or may not decrease their chance to block (some claim to-hit only influences chance to miss, I've seen data to support both sides).
Vs PBT:
Rangers are penalized vs pbt, but as speedy duel weilders that penalty is comparatively light.
A hunter can easily lose half of their melee damage to PBT due to the slow speed of spears. Pup could in theory alleviate this to some extent ... but pup has accuracy problems. Esp unbuffed pup that occurs 99% of the time in real rvr and only rarely in publasized test logs.
Since neither rangers nor hunters are shield weilders or PBT users strict logs betwen them don't reveal these traits, therefore they hide some ranger advantages under a basket and don't take them into account which skews the results.
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So .. from the first page I see star definately had the following advantages.
10% relic
A buffed pet
He potentially had the following advantages:
More spec points in melee.
More Passive combat RA's (I know his passive combat RA list is impressive .. I don't know the ranger).
And any results gathered would have to take into account that Ranger melee has some built in advantages vs shields and PBT that hunters lack ... which is rather important as there are lots of shield/pbt classes out there .. and even more with the effect pbt up though they didn't cast it.
-Doc
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Carion1
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Date Posted:
7/21/03 9:25am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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This is like watching Seinfeld(sp?)...all I see is yata yata yata 
-----signature-----
Carion - Eclipse - Galahad
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." -T.S. Eliot
R.I.P. Kasim 02/28/1976 - 02/07/2008
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Maverick15999
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Date Posted:
7/21/03 9:30am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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Slitz you are like this guy on the dev. boards that posts now you know what is like to be down on our level, yet you have your directions misplaced, Hunters need to be pulled up to the other 2 bow users level, either with the best melee out of the 3 or simply give them better bow damage and range. This bs you pump out about how hunter is just a good as a ranger overall is lacking, people have shown rpts to disprove all of your whines, yet you persist. If Swift. beat your arse then good for him. But to keep saying over and over your class doesn't hold an advantage is tired at best.
You run around in df like a freaking NS or Inf. Sbs don't count now that they were "balanced" lol, kk, diff. topic. But you hardly ever see scouts tripping through df like you do, or many hunters, you walk around with little worry of being ganked, because you know in fact your melee is almost as good as an assasins, so pls STFU.
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Carion1
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Date Posted:
7/21/03 9:31am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
- Date Edited:
7/21/03 9:31am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Carion1
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Hunters really should get 5.5 bows and evade 3 imo.
-----signature-----
Carion - Eclipse - Galahad
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." -T.S. Eliot
R.I.P. Kasim 02/28/1976 - 02/07/2008
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StarDoag
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Date Posted:
7/21/03 9:42am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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My setup:
Spec: 45 spear +17, 40 bow +17, 34 BC +11, 32 Stealth +17
Gear: My gear caps all resist, hits, stats and skills, (Except Beastcraft skill). Armor all MP af102, 4 pieces abalitive, 1 haste, and 1 damage add. Was using a player made 99% qual thrust spear, (16.2 dps, 5.3 spd). Bow shots were done using a 99% qual heavy great bow with best crush arrows (16.2 dps, 5.0 spd)
Stats: (buffed)
1531 WS with spear
1901 WS with bow
1980 Hits
Str 304
con 302
dex 373
qui 282
RAs: MoPain 2, MoArch 2, FEye 2, aug str 1, aug con 3, aug qui 2, aug dex 3, tough 2, longshot, and volley. I do not have IP!
The dog was buffed for each duel with my BC line pet buff. Not shammy buffs.
My shammy buffs are best you can get in Midgard, 47 aug with MoArcane 3. Wish I would of brought a 50 aug healer for a haste buff.
-----signature-----
--StarDoag, RR9 Hunter, Blackthorn, Galahad
-StarDoag, L60 Rogue, Shawdow Gypsies, Ner'Zhul
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goldenarms6
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Date Posted:
7/21/03 9:44am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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my melee so bad ive lost to just the hunters pet before.. 
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Doc_McAlister
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Date Posted:
7/21/03 1:36pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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On procs and defensive procs:
As mentioned above rangers trigger more procs on one hand but proc more often on the other. It's a wash.
The thing with puppy triggered defensive procs is that the pup himself ***does not proc***.
Imagine, if you will, that your offhand could generate defenseive procs on your opponent but you couldn't put a proc on an offhand weapon.
Say we took it further and made you swing offhand every round but reduced you're offhand damage to 10% - 50% mainhand damage and still made it trigger defensive procs but didn't let it offensively proc. Offhand damage would depend on target af/abs/vulnerability .. and yes I have dueled a hunter and been hit by the pet for ~10% the hunters damage (28 points, his 5.3 delay thrust spear was ~10x that to my chain ... when it hit) ... pup had triggered an ablative the hit before ... full damage was still only ~50 pts every ~4.5 seconds if it hit.
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On Evades:
Rangers get evaded more often but each evade reduced their damage less.
True.
Therefore the evade thing is a wash.
False.
It would be a wash if hunters had evade 3 too. They do not, so net advantage to ranger. This advantage is magnified because evade bonuses from dex/qui are multiplicative, not addative, as per Mythic Grab Bag (doesn't garuntee truth but fits the data so I'll accept it).
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Even a hunters own buff makes a noticable difference in pet damage. This lead to Branin suggesting taking Beast to 43 for the next pet buff. While testing clearly shows this makes a nifty increase in pet damage ... few hunters do this because our buff is not insta cast. If the buff were insta-cast including it would mandatory, since its not insta cast at the very least testing should include pet au natural as well as hunter-prepped. After all .. even if combat is hunter initiated the time spent casting the buff is time not meleeing or shooting their bow.
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-Doc
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StarDoag
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Date Posted:
7/21/03 1:41pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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I forgot about Dodger 3, sorry.
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--StarDoag, RR9 Hunter, Blackthorn, Galahad
-StarDoag, L60 Rogue, Shawdow Gypsies, Ner'Zhul
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DAoC_Guy
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Date Posted:
7/23/03 8:59am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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>>IMO they will trigger about the same...
That's where you are incorrect again and I pointed out to you why.
>>That's your opinion... Doesn't mean that it's correct... Your just randomly stating stuff without showing numbers or 'simple math' as you put it...
Armor procs 10% of the time it is hit, not an opinion but a fact.
Hunter and the hunter pet both swing at a slower rate than a Ranger, once again that is not an opinion but a fact.
Blue con pets will hit less often than a lvl 50...again, fact not an opinion.
Styles with to hit bonuses will land more often than a blue con pet using not styles with no to hit bonus...fact, not opinion.
The above is the difference between your statememnt and mine...you stated a pure opinion based on fact, I pointed out the facts for you. Like I said, simple math. No opinions at all except in your responses.
>>So again you totall disregard what I said to try to look cool... Now your not even arguing to present facts but to look cool...
You made an incorrect assumptiom, I corrected your assumption (regarding where you said damage add is same thing as hunters pet). If that is looking cool, then you have a warped idea what being "cool" is.
>>/sigh It isn't as big of an impact since you swing as such a fast speed and also swing twice per attack... What's so hard to understand...
Apparently my statement you are respodning to is hard to unerstand. Pet hits harder than damage add, damage add hits more often than pet. Therefore it's the same as the basic melee damage comparrison between the hunter and ranger classes...hunter is more effected neagtively by being missed/fumbled/evaded than is the ranger due to missing out on more damage, but is effected more positively than the ranger when he hits because of gaining more damage from that hit. Same thing for your hunter pet/ranager damage add comparrison.
>>Which I disputed that the Hunters 2-hand front-loading isn't as great as you would think since the growth rate on our styles are the worst in the game... But of course you totally disregard this like almost everything else I've said...
I've responded to everything you have posted, not disregarded. When you say something that I agree with I agree, when you state something incorrectly where I can post facts to prove otherwise I have done so. If you care to expand more on "Hunters have crappy styles and the gorwth rate is worse in game" then please do so. Show some facts, go into some detail about what you are talking about. To be taken seriously, and more importantly, for your opinions here to be taken seriously, you need to back up what you say with some support (as I have been doing) and not just cite stuff that you have heard or refer to some logs/tests you may have seen as total gospil (especially when you do not even produce these "gospils").
Unless you are confused, this post is dealing in facts. Logs, and factual speak concerning game mechanics and how thet interract, that would be a good start.
Just trying to help, since you said you are getting so frustrated and not going to be responding any more 
-----signature-----
Slitz InCognito (Galahad)
RR10 Ranger
31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20)
PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2
BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Swiftdeathz
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Date Posted:
7/23/03 9:24am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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I'm not frustrated... Just sad that your comprehension and argumentative skills are at the level of a 1st grader...
-----signature-----
Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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DAoC_Guy
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Date Posted:
7/23/03 10:49am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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>>I'm not frustrated... Just sad that your comprehension and argumentative skills are at the level of a 1st grader...
You still have not been able to explain any of the facts I have presented, only come back with the same old tired flames.
I'll present them one last time, and feel free to explain where I am wrong:
Hunter gains more per hit and looses more per non hit.
Ranger gains less per hit and looses less per non hit.
Hunter pet hits less often than his master, due to the fact he is lower lvl and has no styles to give bonus to hits.
Armor procs 10% of the amount it is hit.
Ranger hits more often than Hunter and his pet combined.
More often a weapon hits, more often it procs.
More often armor is hit, the more often it procs.
Flame away Swifty, is about all you have been able to do
Because I know you have no chance of disproving the above since it is all obvious facts. All you have is the flame
I need someone else to step up to argue the Hunters case, this is way too one sided in my favor.
-----signature-----
Slitz InCognito (Galahad)
RR10 Ranger
31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20)
PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2
BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Swiftdeathz
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Date Posted:
7/23/03 11:18am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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I have refuted you many a time and you just come back to make your same tired arguments...
I've already said it's like talking to a wall...
Also the only thing you have proved is how much of a jackass you are with your incompetence...
-----signature-----
Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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vn_olumos
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Date Posted:
7/23/03 11:24am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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All I wanted was a pepsi
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"LMAO HIPPO GOT SKEWLED BRING THE WAHHHZ TO VN R U?
LOL MAYN UVE CHANGED DAWG UVE CHANGED" -- Nond
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DAoC_Guy
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Date Posted:
7/23/03 10:11pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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>>I have refuted you many a time and you just come back to make your same tired arguments...
Oh, I and everyone here must have missed the part where you showed a Hunter hits Ranger's armor more often than the Ranger hits the Hunter.
And the part where armor doesn't procs 10% of the time.
And the part where a Hunter doesn't hit for more than a ranger.
And the part where damage add still hits even though the ranger misses.
And the part where the Hunter pet can hit as well as a lvl 50 Hunter styling.
Apparently, everyone who are reading these boards have missed all this stuff you must have shown, since you have refuted me.
>>I've already said it's like talking to a wall...
A wall of unrefutable commom sense facts, perhaps.
>>Also the only thing you have proved is how much of a jackass you are with your incompetence...
If you translation of bein ga jackass and incompetent is posting logs where another does not, and stating in depth detail of basic game mechanics, then I guess you are right.
Using the above logic, that must make you a fountain of wisdom.
Why don't you actually prove where I have been wrong instead of just flaming and claiming you have done something where in fact you did not.
Here, I'll help you:
Hunter pet hits as often as the hunter himself because (insert your refute here)
Hunter + pet hits the rangers armor more often than the ranger hits the hunter because (insert your refute here)
Hunter does not do more damage everytime he hits the ranger because (insert your refute here)
Armor does not proc on an average of 10% of hits because (insert refute here)
Since you have already refuted all of the above, as you keep trying to boast) then it should just be a simple copy and paste for you.
My prediction, though, is you will claim to have done something you didn't and not refute the above, or you will come up with another comment of how you are not/can't/won't do so.
So far, I've predicted about everything you have done so far. Why don't you surprise me?
-----signature-----
Slitz InCognito (Galahad)
RR10 Ranger
31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20)
PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2
BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Melt304
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Title: Camelot Vault Staff
Solo Ninja~~
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Date Posted:
7/23/03 10:19pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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He knows nothing else Slitz. Just give it a rest. He is always right (in his head) and can do no wrong, Just continue with what you are doing and leave him behind. Better yet IGN needs an ignore feature to ignore people you dont want to see. I know then I would never see a swift post( not that i dont know what he will post) and he wouldnt see mine again.
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