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Author	Topic: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
Swiftdeathz collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,522 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/19/03 4:16pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	Thanks Cooper... That's what me and others have tried to explain to Slitz over and over and over again but he seems to by like Wyrd... Once he gets hell-bent on something he will doubt and ignore and refute everything... -----signature----- Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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DAoC_Guy collection \| wishlist Posts: 856 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/19/03 5:03pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	Actually, I set up duels and post logs And this is still an ongoing process. Things in Stardoags favor that I can come up with were: 10% relic bonus, passive RAs. Things in my favor: Slightly more points spent for my melee, extra +1 to both my melee lines and bow lines due to my RR. Stardoag outdamaged me quite a bit, the only duels I ever won was when I could land my stun style and catch up on the damage he was doing. And even in one or two of the fights I lost my stun style landed. Although reactionary styles are part of the melee contrast between the ranger and the Hunter, it's stil lan interesting note. Here are a couple of other things I have been thinking on that were brought up here: Hunter has a slow hard hitting spear, and when that gets evaded it hurts them more. But the thing that evens it out is when they land it benefits them more than when a Ranger lands a blow. In both instances, the same amount of damage is being gained/lost by each class. Rangers having duel wield, swinging more, means their wepaon procs will land more often. This means the Ranger will land his/her weapon procs way more than a Hunter. The thing that evens this out, though, is that the more often a Ranger hits an enemies armor, the better chance they have of getting a reverse proc procced on them. My weapons will proc more on a hunter than his will on me, Hunters armor will proc on me more than my armor will proc on him. When you look at it from both sides like that, those two issues even themselves out. Am I overlooking something with this logic? -----signature----- Slitz InCognito (Galahad) RR10 Ranger 31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20) PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2 BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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MonosyllabicGoon collection \| wishlist Posts: 825 Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 7/19/03 6:25pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	"Things in my favor: Slightly more points spent for my melee, extra +1 to both my melee lines and bow lines due to my RR." dont forget better buffs 0.o -----signature----- "THAT SIDEWALK IS FAKE!"
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Swiftdeathz collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,522 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/19/03 6:51pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	"Hunter has a slow hard hitting spear, and when that gets evaded it hurts them more. But the thing that evens it out is when they land it benefits them more than when a Ranger lands a blow. In both instances, the same amount of damage is being gained/lost by each class." Not just evaded... When they miss or fumble (this is only talking Ranger vs Hunter, it's worse for Hunter when facing all other classes...) it hurts them more as well... Yes they have the ability to front-load the damage but this doesn't help as much as you'd think... And no, the same amount of damage is not being gained/lost by each class every time an evade/miss/fumble happens because the Hunter is on the rogue damage table so it's front-load 2-hand damage isn't as powerful as with the other 2-hand tank/hybrid classes... "Rangers having duel wield, swinging more, means their wepaon procs will land more often. This means the Ranger will land his/her weapon procs way more than a Hunter." Yep.. "The thing that evens this out, though, is that the more often a Ranger hits an enemies armor, the better chance they have of getting a reverse proc procced on them. My weapons will proc more on a hunter than his will on me, Hunters armor will proc on me more than my armor will proc on him." I guess you forget to see or mention that the Hunter's pet also triggers extra reverse-procs on the enemy... So it's not exactly as you stated... "When you look at it from both sides like that, those two issues even themselves out." Negatory... -----signature----- Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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TheGreatHunter collection \| wishlist Posts: 5,565 Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 7/19/03 8:21pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long) - Date Edited: 7/19/03 8:25pm (1 edits total) Edited By: TheGreatHunter
	1) You are pierce +10% bonus for Hunter there[naturally strong on thrust], assuming hunter is using a thrust spear[most likely is] 2) 10% bonus from relics on the hunter side 3) Apparently more passive ras...we should get the list of ras would be nice cause this make a HUGE difference, bonus to hunter 4) The hunter is suppose to have 10% better melee than the ranger You have 1 RR over the hunter, and some better buffs, and more points invested apparently[didn't take the time to add up] Draw your conlusions...Either way the hunter is suppose to...more often than not beat the ranger. I have a 50 spec spear hunter on pend if anyone wants to set up some tests...Hunters get slightly better WS than rangers with melee due to mythic's increase that came along with insta pet...As alrdy mentioned Ranger Vs. Hunter is not that important to begin with considering I fight the other 20 odd what class more often than the 1. You also have to consider the number of shield spec users albion has[5] which is to huge advantage of the ranger due to the penalty applied to shield because of CD. The hunter penalizes BM/Merc melee[parry ability], but any hunter trying to stand toe to toe to them has been brain damaged cause s/he will get plumetted into the floor. Add to the fact that nearly ever warden has pbt, while most runemaster do not, especially with the advent of darkcaver that mythic so well introduced a couple patches ago[Yes I know about PA but last I checked MOST hunter templates do NO include 50 bow, so it is damage reduction either way]. Throw in melee resists, which is nice for the ranger considering the low population of crush users and inability for the other realm assassins to use them, slash being only available to sbs which rangers are strong to[undoubtedly the most common damage type in midgard]. You look at the big picture and rangers have it better melee wise than hunter, and they have it better bow wise compared to hunters...Take a look at average rps last week, you will find the hunter unsurprisingly last place of the three archers. -----signature----- DAOC - MLF/Palomides/Lamorok/Gareth (retired) WoW - SOE/Mannoroth/Arthas (still playing unfortunately)
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Stabalot collection \| wishlist Posts: 506 Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 7/19/03 9:38pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	Lemme guess, you hit for 800+dmg with 50 spec in spear. Think they upped the dmg a lil too much... -----signature----- Stabalot - LW Hero <Viaticus> RR9.x (Galahad) Blueberry - Darkcarver Runie <Viaticus> RR3.x (Gareth) o_O Guns don't kill people, dangerous minorities do! I believe in looking reality straight in the eye and denying it. -Garrison Keillor
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grigolas1 collection \| wishlist Posts: 664 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 7/20/03 12:31am Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	Does it not all come down to how you spec? The skill of the player,and the buffs that the player has? Even unbuffed spec plays a big part,I think if you have a hunter specced melee with RA for melee he would win every fight. Bow dmg has to do with you built your char and what class you chose also so do the hpts you have. You cannot see what class is better unless you build the best specced char of each....hunter and ranger that is. -----signature----- Grigolas RR 9 scout woot Buffjoo Enhance cleric for buffs Tarabar 50 arms for farming ma loot Gimplee 50 fire wizz I need rpts now gimppllee 50 fotm needs artifacts lvled please
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DAoC_Guy collection \| wishlist Posts: 856 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/20/03 12:15pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	Hunter spear gets evaded/fumbled/missed less often than a Ranger gets evaded/fumbled/misses because they do alot less swings. But when a Ranger is evaded/fumbles/misses they are missing out on less damage than the Hunter is. Just comparing the two classes to one another and not other classes (which is the original intent of this post) that evens itself out. One is not more at a disadvantage than the other in that regard. Procs on weapons/armor. Ranger triggers more negative procs on the enemy armor than a Hunter will, Ranger triggers more positive procs on his weapons than a Hunter will. Thise two issues even themselves out. Now the pet.. Every hit on a piece of armor gives a 10% chance for the armor to proc. So every 10 hits by the hunters pet (not attacks, but hits...misses/evades give no chance for enemies opponents armor to proc) the will trigger an armor proc. If it is an offensive proc, it will only effect the hunters pet..a dd/dot. These you can really count out, unless your opponent is trying to kill your pet and not you :P The procs that will effect you are the Ablatives/Self buff procs on the armor the pet will trigger. This offsets the weapon/armor proc in the favor of the ranger...not because of weapon speeds or duel wield, but solely because the Hunter now has a pet that is helping him hit. The only disadvantage of owning the pet, it looks like, is that some of the damage the pet does can be offset to a degree by the armor procs he sets off. The advantages of the pet, which grossly overcompenstaes this one disadvantage, is that he does significant more damage than he adds to the enemy through armor procs, he adds to hit bonus and lowers enemies defenses by having an extra attacker, allows you to kite, allows you to attack multiple targets, saves you from getting crit shot when slammed by a scout, gives stealthers nowhere to run to if pet is on them. Now, to the advantage a Hunter has over me due to being pierce. I was blade ranger up until a week ago. I know in depth the strength and weaknesses of both. Against the hunter these are them: 20% base damage difference between blades and pierce due to the armor resists of the hunter. 25% melee reduction in the blade line. 50-100 less wepaonskill in the blade line, depending on race. And yes, even celts have less weaponskill in the blade line tahn if they went pierce at lvl 50. This is because of dexterity being primary stat that raises for rangers. Celts have even a better pierce weapon skill than lurikeens due to a high strength stat to start with, then dexterity going high due to being a ranger. Where a Lurikeen can easily go way over the cap in dexterity and below the cap in stre after SCed armor and great buffs, the celt is able to get both those stats right at cap. So, with pierce, the ranger has the advantage of hitting slighly harder with a higher weaponskill (which will offset to a degree the armor resists difference) and will hit more often, due to less misses/evades because of the higher weaponskill (which further helps offset the armor resist differences between the two). In pierce, you get a 5-6 second stun style off an evade. Against a Hunter, you will land this roughly 50% of fights, as you can see in the duels I ran with Stardoag. Alot of armor resist differences can be made up during that stun. Pierce has a 4 style chain...the first 2 styles do the same damage as fire blade and less damage than spectrum blade, the 3rd and 4th styles do double the style damage as spectrum blade, the hardest hitting blade style. Ok, hope I pointed out a few things about rangers some people may not have knew. I know you guys have been pointing out stuff about Hunters I have not thought of/knew before. -----signature----- Slitz InCognito (Galahad) RR10 Ranger 31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20) PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2 BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Bors_Twanger collection \| wishlist Posts: 306 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/20/03 1:03pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	Slitz, you might wanna try the fight again using good ranger styles... Squal, Blinding Raid, Blizzard. Does more damage, for WAY less endurance cost. -----signature----- Dimmy - 50 Hunter - Sold Twanger - 50 Shadowblade - Sold Madmartigan - 50 Ranger - Sold Filberto - 50 Ranger - Sold
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Swiftdeathz collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,522 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/20/03 3:32pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long) - Date Edited: 7/20/03 3:35pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Swiftdeathz
	"Procs on weapons/armor. Ranger triggers more negative procs on the enemy armor than a Hunter will, Ranger triggers more positive procs on his weapons than a Hunter will. Thise two issues even themselves out." It doesn't even out because yet again you fail to mention the pet triggering the defense procs on the Ranger... We all know that most 'intelligent' people will but ablatives on their armor, therefore things do not even out... Ranger has the advantage since he procs more and ranger/hunter trigger defensive procs on opponent about the same... "The advantages of the pet, which grossly overcompenstaes this one disadvantage, is that he does significant more damage than he adds to the enemy through armor procs, he adds to hit bonus and lowers enemies defenses by having an extra attacker, allows you to kite, allows you to attack multiple targets, saves you from getting crit shot when slammed by a scout, gives stealthers nowhere to run to if pet is on them." He's just a dmg add just like your self-dmg add... Except that the pet dmg add can miss, be evaded, hits at a slow rate like our spears, and it's dmg is lessened by melee resists... The Rangers dmg add on the other hand doesn't get evaded or miss and resists don't affect its constant dmg that hits at the same fast rate of the Rangers dual wielding speed... It also doesn't halve your opponents defenses unless the pet is attacking the frontal arc of your opponent... The moment your opponent or the Hunter strafes or moves around the halving-defense affect of the pet does not work... Now as far as you bringing up other things that the pet can do, is irrelvant towards your argument that Hunter vs Ranger melee is on-par... So save us going off topic and educating us as to what the pet can or can't do... "In pierce, you get a 5-6 second stun style off an evade. Against a Hunter, you will land this roughly 50% of fights, as you can see in the duels I ran with Stardoag. Alot of armor resist differences can be made up during that stun." I'm sure it's alot more than 50% of the time... It's probably alot higher which you would see if you ran a healthy amount of duels and not just 9... Again Hunters don't have any useful styles that can stun or debuff your haste while in combat... While Rangers have both depending on their spec and line... Let's not forget to mention that most of the Hunters useful styles all have a penalty to our already pitiful defense... -----signature----- Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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DAoC_Guy collection \| wishlist Posts: 856 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/20/03 8:56pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	>>Slitz, you might wanna try the fight again using good ranger styles... Squal, Blinding Raid, Blizzard. Does more damage, for WAY less endurance cost. Squal (the taunt style in the celtic dual line) is not a good style to use, because it is medium fatigie, low attack bonus, low damage bonus and medium defensive penalty. Both the blades and the pierce taunt is low fatigue, medium attack bonus, low damage bonus and medium defensivie penalty. Blinding raid is the CD reactional off an evade, and blizzard is the follow up to it. The damage on those are the same as the damage you will get from either of the taunting styles. If blade specced, after you land fire/spectrum, you try to use these CD styles as an opener with your taunting blade as backup. If you evade you land these, if not you land taunting blade. If you are pierce spec, you do not use these CD styles because you use your diamond back as primary, with your pierce 4 chain as backup. The stun is better than anything those 2 CD styles offer, same fatigue, and the style hits harder. Your CD style damage is based off your spec in CD, and unless you go higher than CD than your primary melee weapon spec, the above holds true. >>It doesn't even out because yet again you fail to mention the pet triggering the defense procs on the Ranger... I failed to mention nothing, the next paragraph I went in detail about the hunter pet and the very exact thing you are talking about. You even commented on that, which I will address in my next response following this one. I talked about each step by step, and in this step they both DO even out. Minus the pet, the proc issue evens out. Next step, with the pet, we talk about the pet, I will address your reply to it. >>ranger/hunter trigger defensive procs on opponent about the same... Incorrect. Pet is a blue con pet, he has no way to trigger armor procs as much as the Hunter due to the fact his miss and evaded rate will be substantially higher. Furthermore, the pet gets not styles which will allow him bonuses to hit as with the Hunter. The pet will trigger reactive procs on the opponent at a much lower rate due to the fact he will hit less often because of the above mentioned reasons. >>He's just a dmg add just like your self-dmg add... He provied extra damage, same way as a damage add does for us. But there the similarity stops. He offers provides kiting ability, damage add does not. He also provides a way to lower the defensive abilities of your opponent, damage add does not. He also provides a way to interrupt another an opponent from shooting you/casting on you/stealthing from you..even after you are stunned/mezzed/rooted..damage add does not. He allows you to attack two individuals at the same time, damage add does not. >>Except that the pet dmg add can miss Ranger misses, his damage add misses. >>be evaded Ranger gets evades, his damage add is evaded. >>hits at a slow rate like our spears When he hits, he hits for more than the Ranger damage add...same as hunters spear. >>and it's dmg is lessened by melee resists... Harder we hit, the more we get from our damage add...melee resists weaken our melee damage, our damage add is lessened as well. >>It also doesn't halve your opponents defenses unless the pet is attacking the frontal arc of your opponent... The moment your opponent or the Hunter strafes or moves around the halving-defense affect of the pet does not work... I didn't know it lowered the defense as much as half, and I didn't know about defenses only being effected if you are being attacked from the front only. If this is true, I have learned something new. It definately is a significant point. Thanks. >>I'm sure it's alot more than 50% of the time... It's probably alot higher which you would see if you ran a healthy amount of duels and not just 9... Could be more or could be less. From my experience it's about 50%. Best way to find out is to continue to run more tests. As far as how many duels I have had, I posted the latest duel I had with Stardoag...which doesn't mean that is the only duels I have ever had. I have had a healthy amount of solo fights with Hunters as well. How many duels have you had with hunters? How many solo encounters have you had with them? Just curious. Logs would be helpful as well. Even if just 9...9 is still better than none. >>Again Hunters don't have any useful styles that can stun or debuff your haste while in combat... You are correct. I feel Hunters should have their styles looked at and boosted up. >>While Rangers have both depending on their spec and line... Let's not forget to mention that most of the Hunters useful styles all have a penalty to our already pitiful defense... You have a good point...see above. -----signature----- Slitz InCognito (Galahad) RR10 Ranger 31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20) PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2 BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Swiftdeathz collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,522 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/20/03 10:48pm Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	"Incorrect. Pet is a blue con pet, he has no way to trigger armor procs as much as the Hunter due to the fact his miss and evaded rate will be substantially higher. Furthermore, the pet gets not styles which will allow him bonuses to hit as with the Hunter. The pet will trigger reactive procs on the opponent at a much lower rate due to the fact he will hit less often because of the above mentioned reasons." It doesn't matter that he gets a miss here and there... He will still trigger them alot... I know first hand.... "He provied extra damage, same way as a damage add does for us. But there the similarity stops. He offers provides kiting ability, damage add does not. He also provides a way to lower the defensive abilities of your opponent, damage add does not. He also provides a way to interrupt another an opponent from shooting you/casting on you/stealthing from you..even after you are stunned/mezzed/rooted..damage add does not. He allows you to attack two individuals at the same time, damage add does not." Again you totally disregard your own instructions to only compare Ranger vs Hunter melee by listing what the Hunter pet can or can't do against all other classes ... Don't be such a hypocrite and stick to what you claim this thread was about, to compare Ranger vs Hunter melee... Also kiting isn't melee... "Ranger misses, his damage add misses." Yeah no duh... Same thing when pet misses and gets evaded... Ranger doesn't have to worry about his dmg add sometimes missing or getting evaded or having it's dmg lessened by resists or worried about the pet attacking so slow... "Ranger gets evades, his damage add is evaded." Yes but we already went through how when the Ranger misses or gets evaded it doesn't hurt him as much because his dmg output is so high thanks to dual wielding fast weapons... "When he hits, he hits for more than the Ranger damage add...same as hunters spear." Now I know you are shooting smoke out of your ass... Ranger pets now hits as much as the hunters spear claimed by Slitz... ROFL LMAO!! "Harder we hit, the more we get from our damage add...melee resists weaken our melee damage, our damage add is lessened as well." But the dmg add itself doesn't lessen because of resist alone... -----signature----- Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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DAoC_Guy collection \| wishlist Posts: 856 Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 7/21/03 12:51am Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long) - Date Edited: 7/21/03 12:57am (1 edits total) Edited By: DAoC_Guy
	>>It doesn't matter that he gets a miss here and there... He will still trigger them alot... I know first hand.... Your statement wasn't that he would trigger them alot, you said he will trigger them about the same...here is your statement.. >>Ranger has the advantage since he procs more and ranger/hunter trigger defensive procs on opponent about the same... Which is incorrect, and I gave the facts as to why you was incorrect. The amount the pet will trigger them is not something a Hunter has unique knowledge of, it follows a basic game mechanic that is in effect for every person and pet and mob out there...armor procs has a 10% chance to trigger each time that piece of armor is hit. So your pet will set off a proc 1 in every 10 hits he makes. Add this to the hunter's slow swing rate, ranger fast and double hitting melee, the ranger triggers quite a bit more reactives than does the hunter. As you yourself has stated, pet hits slow like you spear. Add to that the fact that pet does not have his hits landed as often as a Hunter lands his hits, then look at how many times the ranger is swinging and hitting and there is no way your above claim can be true. It's simple math. >>Again you totally disregard your own instructions to only compare Ranger vs Hunter melee by listing what the Hunter pet can or can't do against all other classes ... Don't be such a hypocrite and stick to what you claim this thread was about, to compare Ranger vs Hunter melee... Also kiting isn't melee... You said your pet is same as a damage add, I showed you how that is an incorrect statement. That had nothing to do with ranger/hunter melee just showing where you was incorrect in your assumption. I went in as much detail as I could. >>Yeah no duh... Same thing when pet misses and gets evaded... Ranger doesn't have to worry about his dmg add sometimes missing or getting evaded or having it's dmg lessened by resists or worried about the pet attacking so slow... You realize if the swing gets evaded/fumbled/missed, the damage add does not land correct? Damage add is tied together with our weapons landing...hunter is not tied to your weapon landing. You can still miss/fumble/evade and your pet still has a chance to hit...unlike our damage add. >>Yes but we already went through how when the Ranger misses or gets evaded it doesn't hurt him as much because his dmg output is so high thanks to dual wielding fast weapons... And we have also went over how when a ranger lands a hit it doesn't benefit them as much as when a hunter does, because the hunter is hitting so much harder. Balances out, as has been pointed out before. >>Now I know you are shooting smoke out of your ass... Ranger pets now hits as much as the hunters spear claimed by Slitz... ROFL LMAO!! And Rangers now have pets, as claimed by Swiftdeathz...ROFL LMAO! Do you need to read that statement again? Where did you come up with a Ranger pet? Let me list the statement you are responding to... >>hits at a slow rate like our spears <Swiftdeathz> >>When he hits, he hits for more than the Ranger damage add...same as hunters spear.<Slitz> When he hits (the Hunters pet), he hits for more than the Ranger damage add...same as the hunters spear (same as ib it also hits for more than than rangers damage add...you said the pet hit at a slow rate like hunters spear, I say they also hit for more damage like the hunters spear...this is where I am thinking you are confused, and the ranger pet thing was a typo on your part. The way I worded things does seem a bit tricky there) >>But the dmg add itself doesn't lessen because of resist alone... Same things that would make a pet hit for less will also make our damage add hit for less. Because anything that effects how hard your pet can hit will also affect how hard we can hit with our melee weapons, which will in turn effect or damage add. Higher melee resists will equal less damage adds for us. -----signature----- Slitz InCognito (Galahad) RR10 Ranger 31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20) PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2 BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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wyrd77 collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,711 Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 7/21/03 4:35am Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
	Just as a note... DW'ers swing many more times and thus they will trigger more defensive procs. Ranger -- Swinging every 1.5 seconds means 40 swings per minute. DW'ing at 50% means you swing 60 times per minute. 10% chance of a proc means you should have 6 defensive and offensive procs per minute. Hunter -- Swinging every 3 seconds means 20 swings per minute and thus you should proc 2 offensive and defensive procs. Throw in the pet and the pet will swing about every 3 seconds and thus should set off about 2 more defensive procs (but if they are DoTs, it doesnt matter, Ablative/AF will be a deterrant). All the above is only with equal to-hit, and as Slitz mentioned, the to-hit for the pet is much lower, so Id almost say that you could take off 1 of the defensive procs from him. Thus, in 1 minute: Ranger - 6O / 6D Hunter - 2O / 3D What that means... I dunno, but thats the raw concept. I think Slitz is correct here. Wyrd -----signature----- Retired
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Swiftdeathz collection \| wishlist Posts: 6,522 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/21/03 9:00am Subject: RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long) - Date Edited: 7/21/03 9:06am (1 edits total) Edited By: Swiftdeathz
	" Your statement wasn't that he would trigger them alot, you said he will trigger them about the same...here is your statement.." IMO they will trigger about the same... "Which is incorrect, and I gave the facts as to why you was incorrect. The amount the pet will trigger them is not something a Hunter has unique knowledge of, it follows a basic game mechanic that is in effect for every person and pet and mob out there...armor procs has a 10% chance to trigger each time that piece of armor is hit. So your pet will set off a proc 1 in every 10 hits he makes. Add this to the hunter's slow swing rate, ranger fast and double hitting melee, the ranger triggers quite a bit more reactives than does the hunter. As you yourself has stated, pet hits slow like you spear. Add to that the fact that pet does not have his hits landed as often as a Hunter lands his hits, then look at how many times the ranger is swinging and hitting and there is no way your above claim can be true. It's simple math." That's your opinion... Doesn't mean that it's correct... Your just randomly stating stuff without showing numbers or 'simple math' as you put it... "You said your pet is same as a damage add, I showed you how that is an incorrect statement. That had nothing to do with ranger/hunter melee just showing where you was incorrect in your assumption. I went in as much detail as I could." Which is correct... It's a form of extra dmg add for hunters same as your dmg add is extra dmg for Rangers... So again you totall disregard what I said to try to look cool... Now your not even arguing to present facts but to look cool... "You realize if the swing gets evaded/fumbled/missed, the damage add does not land correct? Damage add is tied together with our weapons landing...hunter is not tied to your weapon landing. You can still miss/fumble/evade and your pet still has a chance to hit...unlike our damage add." /sigh It isn't as big of an impact since you swing as such a fast speed and also swing twice per attack... What's so hard to understand... "And we have also went over how when a ranger lands a hit it doesn't benefit them as much as when a hunter does, because the hunter is hitting so much harder. Balances out, as has been pointed out before." Which I disputed that the Hunters 2-hand front-loading isn't as great as you would think since the growth rate on our styles are the worst in the game... But of course you totally disregard this like almost everything else I've said... "And Rangers now have pets, as claimed by Swiftdeathz...ROFL LMAO!" This was obviously a typo and I meant Hunter pets... Doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out... "Do you need to read that statement again? Where did you come up with a Ranger pet? Let me list the statement you are responding to..." ... "When he hits (the Hunters pet), he hits for more than the Ranger damage add...same as the hunters spear (same as ib it also hits for more than than rangers damage add...you said the pet hit at a slow rate like hunters spear, I say they also hit for more damage like the hunters spear...this is where I am thinking you are confused, and the ranger pet thing was a typo on your part. The way I worded things does seem a bit tricky there)" He hits more per hit than the dmg add obviously since he swings slow and the Rangers dmg add gets tacked on after every fast swing... But again, the dmg output of the Ranger is much higher than the hunter... "Same things that would make a pet hit for less will also make our damage add hit for less. Because anything that effects how hard your pet can hit will also affect how hard we can hit with our melee weapons, which will in turn effect or damage add. Higher melee resists will equal less damage adds for us." No you tool... The dmg add itself does not change because of targets resist... It changes according to your dmg on the target and your style... This has nothing to do with the targets resists or anything else such as a miss from an outside source or evade... P.S. Arguing with you Slitz is like arguing with a wall... I frankly grow very tired since I feel like any help or point of view I throw your way you are just refuting it to get the last word in... I'll let you believe that Rangers melee is on par with Hunters melee... -----signature----- Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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