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Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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Red_Haired_Vixen
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Jan '02
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Date Posted:
7/18/03 3:15pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
- Date Edited:
7/18/03 3:19pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Red_Haired_Vixen
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Wyrd... u might not of seen it... Slitz flamed Swifty for kiting/running to start all this mess.
IMO kiting is a stupid tactic that has had to be developed because hunters are not where they should be. I DO NOT FAULT anyone that uses it. Its like a crutch for a gimped class.
Put it this way... when a TL says you have to kite to be a relatively successful hunter (the only tactic), then something is wrong. One tactic only = teh gimp = equals easily counterable = die often = not fun to play.
Which fun to play seems to be the primary goal of Mythic.
Swifty... Fridays are like a non-entity at Mythic. They are there and do stuff... but nothing new gets started. I don't expect a response until begining of the week, but I am working on it.
-----signature-----
Astaria Dödfurstinna
 Sword Huntress - Matriarch to the Sword way
Veteran Activist for Hunters on Pendragon Test
Torrential: 'I admire you Astaria after all this time you are still hounding the Devs about
the dead horse issue of hunter balance
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Mang-Mang
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Date Posted:
7/18/03 4:30pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
- Date Edited:
7/18/03 4:53pm (5 edits total)
Edited By:
Mang-Mang
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""Honestly, Id think 2 Hunters working together would be more powerful than 2 Rangers working together since then the Hunters could make use of some beefy positional melee styles and double up with the pets. ""
Well using the formula you so kindly gave to the community:
The "beefy" positionals are
Lvl 21 Perforrate, a bleed style with medium bonus damage and a medium penalty
Growth Rate 0.67
into a
Lvl 50 Gungnir's Fury another bleed style with medium bonus damage, no penalty (wtf can afford to spec to 50 in spear)
Growth Rate 0.85 (lowest of all the lvl 50 2h styles in the game mind you)
Or....
Lvl 39 Razors Edge, back positional stun style (5 secs (i think its lower irl))medium bonus damage, low penalty to defense.
Growth Rate of 0.78 (decent)
into a
Lvl 44 Odins Wrath, a high bonus damage, low bonus to defense style.
Growth Rate of 0.88 our best rated attack. ( all other 2h styles have a higher rated style )
We don't have beefy positionals we have sub par to the other styles of the game.
Every attack we through out that does decent damage gives medium to large penalties...
Also wyrd77 if it matters if you average out the total growth rates of the syles in spear you would get 0.67 also the lowest of the 2h styles in the game. =)
edit : per swift
-----signature-----
Mang Mang <Ook Ook> Galahad Hunter
DO A BARREL ROLL !!!
Farm or My Family Dies
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Swiftdeathz
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Date Posted:
7/18/03 4:39pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
- Date Edited:
7/18/03 4:42pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Swiftdeathz
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Mang, the 44 Odin's Wrath is Low Bonus...
The 39 rear stun is Low Penalty 
-----signature-----
Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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Mang-Mang
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Date Posted:
7/18/03 4:49pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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hehe you're right was typing fast and mistook the L for large instead of L for low
-----signature-----
Mang Mang <Ook Ook> Galahad Hunter
DO A BARREL ROLL !!!
Farm or My Family Dies
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Vistrix
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Title: The Executioner
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Date Posted:
7/18/03 5:14pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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There are alot of flaws in this test, not taking anything away from the idea's of the poster or anything like that but I have been a ranger since beta and I have mulled through endless specs to come upon the one that is as solid as it gets for over all versatility, its as follows
39 blades
36 PF
35 Bow
34 Stealth
24 CD
I have melee'd several hunters before with me having rez effects and no IP up when they have gotten 2 shots on me and beaten them. I am not bragging here, what I am saying is there should be zero exscuse for a hunter beating a ranger in straight melee assuming the ranger knows his styles, has appropriate gear and is within the same realm rank area.
Hunters I have never had a problem with, and that isnt a dis on the people that play them in any way -- unfortunatly mythic continues to further the distance of balance between the best archer the scout and the worst the hunter which is sad.
I have so many logs, tests numbers that you could stare at for hours and just be dumbfounded with archer mechanics in general.
Bottom line is hunters should never beat rangers straight up melee if both ranger/hunter has acceptable weapon spec. There is to much stacked against the hunter.
Feel free to send me PM's if you wish to have a intelligent conversation about archers, I would be more than happy to discuss this type of thing.
Take care all.
-----signature-----
Ndayr - 70 Enchanter EQ (Retired)
Nathrac - 60 Warrior EQ (Retired)
Vistrix - 50 Ranger - MLF Retired
Aphyxion 60 Undead mage WoW (Retired)
Trojin 60 Orc Warrior WoW (Inactive)
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Daenor
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Date Posted:
7/18/03 6:19pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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So the moral of all this is, give hunters h2h and evade 7 and we'll have better melee 
<waits for it...>
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DAoC_Guy
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Date Posted:
7/18/03 8:22pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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Hey guys,
Thanks for all the positive feed back and comments on this thread. I was pretty worried it would turn into a huge flame thread but overall the flames have not been so bad.
First off, since a couple days ago I bleive Swift and my feelings toward one another have went from mutual respect/indifference from down right just not liking each other in hardly any way or form. I have never just not liked someone on the boards or even in game but I think the one thing we can agree on is we just don't like each other. Since that is the case, my best bet is just to try to not flame Swift directly/personally and just stick with the issue that is currently at hand..Ranger/Hunter melee/bow comparisons.
I would be happy to start another post that will get locked on the original incident between what I think of Swifts play style and what Swift thinks of me for posting about it, but would like to keep it out of this thread if possible.
Now...on to some good stuff
Alot of people have pointed out some good points that I had overlooked. I'll try to address a few of them if possible.
>>So a Hunter can beat up on ya with higher spec in melee and you using weapons weak to his gear.
Stardoag has 45 Spear, that = 1034 spec points in melee.
I am 39 pierce, 23 CD, that = 1054 spec points spent in melee.
Sorry arrow types were not mentioned...I was using the best slash arrows you can get. I'm assuming Star was using the best blunt arrows available, because I don't think his damage could have been much higher then what it already was...his bow damage even surprised me.
My bow is MP. It is the 5.5, 16.5 DPS bow, player made. I have +18 in all my melee and bow skills. My weapons are 99qual, player made 16.5 DPSall my melee resists are maxed, my armor is all 99qual except for one piece which is MP. All my weapons and bow was repaired to 100% prior to the duels.
I hope to have some duels with Mang this weekend, we are trying to set up something now.
Since I finally got called back from my lay off (Man am I glad, I was getting hungry) I will not be on all the time as I have in the last few months but will still get on when I can and run as many duels as I can. I will even try to bring other Ranger friends with varying specs. Right now I will only have time to Duel Mang (and whoever else he may want to bring with him for the duels as well) for this weekend.
And like some others have seemed to be doing, setting up other duels between other players and posting the logs would be very beneficial as well.
I think everyone can learn alot from all this.
Feel free to flame anything I have said or posted, I have thick skin But plz don't do it so much where anything gets locked :P
If there is anything else I have missed, feel free to point it out
See you guys in the Frontier/DF
-----signature-----
Slitz InCognito (Galahad)
RR10 Ranger
31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20)
PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2
BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Swiftdeathz
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Date Posted:
7/18/03 11:07pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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"First off, since a couple days ago I bleive Swift and my feelings toward one another have went from mutual respect/indifference from down right just not liking each other in hardly any way or form. I have never just not liked someone on the boards or even in game but I think the one thing we can agree on is we just don't like each other. Since that is the case, my best bet is just to try to not flame Swift directly/personally and just stick with the issue that is currently at hand..Ranger/Hunter melee/bow comparisons."
This was all brought on by yourself because you didn't get your way one day in DF and got mad and decided to post here...
You flamed me, called me and still continue to call me a high RR person that only cares about IRS and always runs from fights...
You even have the nerve to say that you know this as a fact because Mids even say that I run away every fight... /rolls eyes
"I would be happy to start another post that will get locked on the original incident between what I think of Swifts play style and what Swift thinks of me for posting about it, but would like to keep it out of this thread if possible."
You'd love all that attention again wouldn't you... Massachists like you are hard to come by... 
-----signature-----
Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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DAoC_Guy
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Date Posted:
7/18/03 11:54pm
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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Ok, that's nice Swift
Anyways...what would you guys like to see in the next duels I post? Like I said earlier, Mang and myself are going to try and have some this weekend. I know there were alot of concerns about certain variables I may have not covered in my previous duels with Stardoag. What would be the ideal way to do the most accurate duel between Mang and myself? There will be no way to do anything perfectly, but I would like to get it as close to perfect as is reasonably possible.
This is what I was thinking, but would like you guys to add any suggestions over something I may be overlooking.
Mang and myself will have 5 buffed fights (if he brings a bot with him) and 5 unbuffed fights.
We will do 10 crit shots buffed, 10 crit shots unbuffed, 10 regular shots buffed, 10 regular shots unbuffed on each other.
We will post our bots specs and any MoA they have.
We will list our specs, and list any +s we have to our specs.
We will list all passive RAs we have.
We will list our melee resists.
We will list the quality, DPS, condition and procs of our weapons.
We will list the arrow types we use.
The pet will be cast for each fight, that way there can be no doubt it was not buffed.
Ok, that's all I can think of. If I'm missing anything here please feel free to point it out.
I do have one question for everyone...when we duel, and the hunter casts the pet, should I back up and insure the pet is in front of me? Since, as someone pointed out, most intelligent people will strafe and move around to try to keep all targets in front of them at all time for defensive purposes. I'm thinking I should, what does everyone here think?
-----signature-----
Slitz InCognito (Galahad)
RR10 Ranger
31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20)
PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2
BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Swiftdeathz
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Date Posted:
7/19/03 12:59am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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Honestly slitz you aren't going to be able to prove anything...
I don't really hate you nor even dislike you... I'd have to be nuts to get so emotional through a forum... I've been gaming online and getting flamed on forums for the longest and have grown quite a thick skin... It's something that I've come to accept and realize that with success in anything in life, it creates envy in some people because that's human nature...
Anyways what you are trying to prove that is your opinion has already been tested by the Hunter TL and by others...
In order for it to be valid you'd need to be EXACT in everything from AF RR RA's exact spec etc.. Then you'd have to run an extensive amount of tests like 50-100 at the least...
This of course is pretty dificult to do unless you have DEV control over the game and you can artificially create characters or are a TL and it is your job to do this...
In summation... You can keep hating on me... You can keep calling me a coward who is consumed with IRS, etc... But the bottom line is that what you are trying to prove has already been proved to be wrong by others...
-----signature-----
Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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DAoC_Guy
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Date Posted:
7/19/03 1:18am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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Swift, I would be happy to discuss anything about me and you through PMs if you like, I'm sure everyone here has grown tired of us bickering in a public forum :P
Thanks for your suggestions of how to conduct a more perfect duel/logs. There will, as you pointed out, be some margin of error in about any duel/log that takes place. I'll try to make that margin as small as I can.
Alot of things have been claimed by Mythic, TLs, players in the past that later turn out to not be entirely as once thought. I think more information that is provided on any issue the better. I still think the best method for us to know anything is for us to see for ourselves
-----signature-----
Slitz InCognito (Galahad)
RR10 Ranger
31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20)
PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2
BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Swiftdeathz
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Date Posted:
7/19/03 1:27am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
- Date Edited:
7/19/03 1:38am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Swiftdeathz
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"Swift, I would be happy to discuss anything about me and you through PMs if you like, I'm sure everyone here has grown tired of us bickering in a public forum :P "
I don't want to speak to you through PM's or even anywhere else because you have attempted at making me look bad like other board trolls that have flamed me in the past... I can take the flames but I refuse to 'kiss and make up'... Besides you've made it clear how you think I'm a coward obsessed with IRS anyways... What's to talk about...
"Thanks for your suggestions of how to conduct a more perfect duel/logs. There will, as you pointed out, be some margin of error in about any duel/log that takes place. I'll try to make that margin as small as I can."
If you are sooooooo serious about proving to the DAOC community that Hunter melee is equal or close to Ranger melee you have to point out that you mean only Ranger vs Hunter... And not the broad scope of things...
Then you'd have to take more than 9 duels here and 9 duels there... If you were truly serious and not just lengthening out the attention you are getting from flaming me, then you'd take at least 50 duels or more with both characters having near identical RR's, RA skill distribution, resists, weapon spec, etc.... then whatever discrepencies would need to be accounted for (such as one of the characters having bonus from relics..)
"Alot of things have been claimed by Mythic, TLs, players in the past that later turn out to not be entirely as once thought. I think more information that is provided on any issue the better. I still think the best method for us to know anything is for us to see for ourselves"
Yes we all know that Mythic sometimes doesn't know it's own game... Which is why the tests that I'm talking about were not done by Mythic employees... They were done by TL's which do this for free and do it to attempt to better the class that he represents... Therefore the Mythic argument doesn't apply here...
What you are trying to prove is incorrect, I and others know this from logs that have been performed by both TL's and gamers like you and me who made that extra effort to remove as much of the variables that skew results like this... They took hours and hours to do this... not a Thursday night where they had a few duels...
oh btw, let's not get things twisted... Hunter melee when compared against the other 2 archers is not bad... Hunters can now deal with scouts usually since 90% of them don't spec more than 12 in weapon and the slam isn't as bad now that we have insta-pet to not allow them to crit us with bow while stunned... But if it's a melee spec'd Scout with say 39+ weapon and 42+ shield then things get a little tricky... Scouts with shield spec and 2-hand weapons having penalty to shield makes things ugly for a Hunter vs Scout duel... Especially if the Scout has some melee to backup the defense... 42+ shield, evade 3, 39+ weapon will put a big hurting on a Hunter...
Rangers on the other hand only have marginally better defense than us with Evade3 but they have alot higher damage output thanks to dual wielding fast weapons (this has alot of benefits) and self dmg add... So even though when they get evaded against a Hunter (which hunters are lucky to get 1-2 evades per fight) or missed, then it won't hurt them as much since they swing so fast and make up the lost dmg very fast... The hunter on the other hand with a miss or evade with their SLOW 2-hander hurts them alot more since it takes them alot longer to make up the lost damage...
Now when you look a the broad scope of things and compare the melee's of the archers against other classes such as assassins or hybrids... Then the disparity gets even worse... The slow 2-handed Hunter weapon and slow pet attack rate and lack of defense hurts when facing classes that have high evade or parry or block... While the Ranger can still excel against these classes because although their defense is only slightly higher, their misses/evades/blocks/parries won't hurt them as much because of the speed and huge dmg output from dual wielding fast weapons that has a dmg add...
Don't know if you will see this or even understand this... But ehh I tried...
-----signature-----
Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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DAoC_Guy
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Date Posted:
7/19/03 2:07am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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>>I don't want to speak to you through PM's or even anywhere else...
Swift, the above is "speaking to me"...
>>because you have attempted at making me look bad like other board trolls that have flamed me in the past...
Swift, I'm not "out to get you". Calm down man. I just don't think too highly of you. It's that simple, there is nothing deeper or any more sinister to it then that. But this post is about Hunter/Ranger melee, not about me not thinking very much of you.
>>I can take the flames but I refuse to 'kiss and make up'...
I don't want to kiss and makeup either. I would just like all these personal rants directed at me taken to PMs like they should. If you have nothing to say to me, then why do you keep speaking to me here?
>>Besides you've made it clear how you think I'm a coward obsessed with IRS anyways... What's to talk about...
There isn't anything else to talk about on that subject. You seem to think there is...I have nothing else to say about it Swift. I am trying to discuss Hunter/Ranger melee.
>>If you were truly serious and not just lengthening out the attention you are getting from flaming me
Swift, this is not the @Swiftdeathz post. If I am flaming you in this post somewhere, tell me where and I will edit it out. I don't want this to be a personal thing between you and me. I want to discuss Ranger/Hunter melee/bow here plz.
Everything else you just posted is the kind of thing this post needs. Critical thinking from another perspective. You have some good points.
-----signature-----
Slitz InCognito (Galahad)
RR10 Ranger
31 Bow, 30 Stealth, 31 Pierce, 21 PF, 50 CD (+20)
PD3, AoM3, MoS3, Tough3, IP3, Purge1, MoP2, Dex3, Con2
BotS/SoM/Fools Bow/GSV/Sharkskin Gloves/Eerie Darkness Stone
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Stabalot
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Date Posted:
7/19/03 2:48am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
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Swift, I only hate you because you hit casters harder than meh, I'm lucky if I can hit one for 350... QQ
-----signature-----
Stabalot - LW Hero <Viaticus> RR9.x (Galahad)
Blueberry - Darkcarver Runie <Viaticus> RR3.x (Gareth)
o_O
Guns don't kill people, dangerous minorities do!
I believe in looking reality straight in the eye and denying it. -Garrison Keillor
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Swiftdeathz
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Date Posted:
7/19/03 7:14am
Subject:
RE: Logs of hunter/ranger melee/bow damage comparrison (Long)
- Date Edited:
7/19/03 7:20am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Swiftdeathz
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"Swift, the above is "speaking to me"..."
Not directly... I don't mind a heated discussion through a forum but I'll be damn If i'm gonna get all 'buddy' with you through PM's or IRC...
"Swift, I'm not "out to get you". Calm down man. I just don't think too highly of you. It's that simple, there is nothing deeper or any more sinister to it then that. But this post is about Hunter/Ranger melee, not about me not thinking very much of you."
Sure you are... Or you would have never posted your original 'wah' flame post at me... You would have taken the death and moved on... And it's as simple as that...
"I don't want to kiss and makeup either. I would just like all these personal rants directed at me taken to PMs like they should. If you have nothing to say to me, then why do you keep speaking to me here?"
Then quit asking to talk through PMs... I don't need to take something that was created by a flaming POS who now wants me to take it and shut up when you were the one who should have done that...
"There isn't anything else to talk about on that subject. You seem to think there is...I have nothing else to say about it Swift. I am trying to discuss Hunter/Ranger melee."
Sure there is... Everytime you bring up my name regarding this subject that was brought upon by your flame I sure as hell will talk about it... Need to spread the word to VN about how much of a whiner you can be...
"Swift, this is not the @Swiftdeathz post. If I am flaming you in this post somewhere, tell me where and I will edit it out. I don't want this to be a personal thing between you and me. I want to discuss Ranger/Hunter melee/bow here plz."
No but it's about an incident about me or this post would have never materialized... You never cared to discuss Ranger/Hunter before I brought up that our melees were far apart with Rangers being on top after you originally began to flame me for the way I play...
"Everything else you just posted is the kind of thing this post needs. Critical thinking from another perspective. You have some good points."
Yes and i'm still waiting for a response... None of course none, you only respond to what you care about and what suits you on your quest...
-------------------------------
" Swift, I only hate you because you hit casters harder than meh, I'm lucky if I can hit one for 350... QQ"
yeah right... Then pigs started to fly...
-----signature-----
Demonio BD, Enthusiast Healer, Nukey WL, Swiftdeathz Hunter http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=search&query=Swiftdeathz also search for my Warlock vid Dwarf Hunter, Nukez Gnome Warlock - WOW (Alleria)
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