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Topic:
Growth Rates
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Lisio 
Posts: 2,015
Registered: Jun 03
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Date Posted:
6/17 1:59pm
Subject: Growth Rates
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Does anyone have any information which shows the growth rates of Hand to Hand styles?
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GotharNW 
Posts: 6,588
Registered: Feb 02
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Date Posted:
6/17 2:43pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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These were performed by Sweat.
Taunt
Wild Call - 363 Cap, 0.89 GR
Side Chain
Kelgor's Fist - 425 Cap, 1.25 GR
Kelgor's Wrath - 461 Cap, 1.46 GR
Back Chain
Clan's Call - 414 Cap, 1.19 GR
Clan's Might - 461 Cap, 1.46 GR
Evade Chain
Totemic Fear - 418 Cap, 1.21 GR
Totemic Wrath - 461 Cap, 1.46 GR
Totemic Sacrifice - 461 Cap, 1.46 GR
Parry Chain
Tribal Rage - 412 Cap, 1.18 GR
Tribal Assault - 414 Cap, 1.19 GR
Tribal Wrath - 461 Cap, 1.46 GR
If you wish to verify these numbers use this formula:
GR = (StyledCap - UnstyledCap)/(Specialization * SwingSpd)
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Gaw *Broderskapet* || Guin*Raz 'Xi*
R8 Warrior, R7 Warden, R4 Shaman and a few other 50s
2 LGM AC/LGM Tailor
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Gatorboots 
Posts: 859
Registered: May 03
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Date Posted:
6/17 7:54pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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Those seem a bit high like higher than pre nerf zerker. I'd check the math or the equation.
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Ratharius
Posts: 1,901
Registered: Feb 03
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Date Posted:
6/17 8:00pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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Of course they are high...
Savage have the highest 1 handed caps in the game...easy...
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GotharNW
Posts: 6,588
Registered: Feb 02
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Date Posted:
6/17 9:24pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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"Those seem a bit high like higher than pre nerf zerker. I'd check the math or the equation."
They have been verified multiple times. I included the GR formula so you can go check them yourself.
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Gaw *Broderskapet* || Guin*Raz 'Xi*
R8 Warrior, R7 Warden, R4 Shaman and a few other 50s
2 LGM AC/LGM Tailor
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Aleos 
Posts: 302
Registered: Mar 02
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Date Posted:
6/17 9:41pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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What is Growth Rates?
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Bonestone - <Troll Bonedancer lvl 49/ML 2 Convoker>  Atum TheCreator - <Norse Shadowblade lvl 26>  Heavyweight ChampionOfTheRealms - <Troll H2H Savage lvl 37>  Mid/Kay - *Keepers of Valhalla* - <Thrall> 
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Shotokan_ 
Title: Mythic Team Lead
Savage TL
Posts: 195
Registered: Apr 04
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Date Posted:
6/17 10:04pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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Not as high as a pre nerf zerk if my memory serves, in fact not even in the same ballpark considering the usage on a number of the styles in minimal.
There is of course a price that comes with them. The first being the lowest APR (average hits per round) in the game 1.55, as well as a more restrictive style line based on reactionaries and positionals with no true anytime.
All of the SI style lines sport some very high growth rates. If you combine the proc damage into your calculations for Reavers and Valewalkers they actually blow those numbers away. They also have trade offs for those abilities however.
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Krayven Thurisaz - Isen Herra Spiritmaster - Nimue
Akheron - Gryphon Knight Reaver - MLF
Shotoken - Savage 2.0 - Mordred
Order of Shadow Nimue/MLF
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GotharNW
Posts: 6,588
Registered: Feb 02
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Date Posted:
6/17 10:42pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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"What is Growth Rates?"
It's a comparison of how much a style *grows* in comparison to a taunt style in the specific style line.
GRs allow you to compare style damage via a uniform number since caps vary based on the weapon you are using.
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Gaw *Broderskapet* || Guin*Raz 'Xi*
R8 Warrior, R7 Warden, R4 Shaman and a few other 50s
2 LGM AC/LGM Tailor
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Joscelin
Posts: 55
Registered: Apr 03
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Date Posted:
6/18 1:49am
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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No true anytimer? The taunt style looks pretty good with a GR of .89 
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ceixava
Posts: 99
Registered: Jan 03
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Date Posted:
6/18 2:04am
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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savage lvl6 taunt has a growthrate that is .04 higher than the lvl50 style in bm's cd spec
supernova, 3rd in sidechain: 0.85 GR
savage lvl6 taunt, ANYTIME: 0.89 GR
good going mythic jejejej xD
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daoc: been there done that
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Ratharius
Posts: 1,901
Registered: Feb 03
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Date Posted:
6/18 2:22am
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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Its the no to hit that savages QQ over...
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Zoot_Suitriot
Posts: 2,453
Registered: May 02
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Date Posted:
6/18 9:45am
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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^^ has been proven to be a moot point in rvr. "To hit" does not increase your chance of landing a hit on a RvR opponent, only higher level mobs.
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Beasts2
Posts: 233
Registered: Jun 04
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Date Posted:
6/18 10:02am
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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How in the hell do you get to the cap in damage...im hitting about 230 average .... thats half of that does the extra .3 you get in dps after rr5 make that big of a difference? my weps show true dps at 16.2 on a 16.5 wep .. after rr5 i understand it goes to 16.5 ... wth does that mean first of all lol and does it really mean that much of a difference?
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50 shaman Meidek Alert RR 3L3 ML 4 50 savage Beasts RR 3L2 ML 4 50 sm Zhi Uhk Modern bot from hell 6.3 bubs into 50 46 rm Oracles NF FotM 50 Skald Punitve Damage Retired And Justice For All -GM- Mid / Lance (spying on Mordred lol)
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GotharNW
Posts: 6,588
Registered: Feb 02
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Date Posted:
6/18 10:09am
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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The caps are irrelevant to the actual growth rate of the style. I should have taken the caps out to avoid confusion because I knew someone would ask about them.
The cap will vary depending on the weapon(s) you use and how fast you are swinging them (e.g. hastes and/or quickness).
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Gaw *Broderskapet* || Guin*Raz 'Xi*
R8 Warrior, R7 Warden, R4 Shaman and a few other 50s
2 LGM AC/LGM Tailor
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Dfnoob
Posts: 1,016
Registered: Jan 03
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Date Posted:
6/18 10:58am
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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"^^ has been proven to be a moot point in rvr. "To hit" does not increase your chance of landing a hit on a RvR opponent, only higher level mobs. "
Actually that is not true. Tohit does not play a role in penatrating defenses (evade/parry/block) but it DOES play a role in flat out hit/misses. I don't have the link handy for you atm but it can be found in a fair amount of posts on the viking boards.
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& some Hibs on Lance
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GotharNW
Posts: 6,588
Registered: Feb 02
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Date Posted:
6/18 10:59am
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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Correct.
Unstyled hits have an 85% chance of landing.
Styled hits have a 90% chance of landing.
A character with a defensive penalty increase the opponents chance to hit 100%.
The to hit lies in the middle.
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Gaw *Broderskapet* || Guin*Raz 'Xi*
R8 Warrior, R7 Warden, R4 Shaman and a few other 50s
2 LGM AC/LGM Tailor
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Ratharius
Posts: 1,901
Registered: Feb 03
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Date Posted:
6/18 11:34am
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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230 dmg on what targets?
The only target I ever hit for less than 200 main hand was a R5+ Paladin here and there...
Casters I avg 400 main hand...Clerics tore up like no ones business...300-400 on really anything except plate main hand before crit...Hell I had 4 different triples on Bards for 900+...
Get a sally tail, get your SCed suit done and quit your damn crying...H2H savages hit as hard as damn 2 handers...
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artemis_daoc
Posts: 3,297
Registered: Mar 02
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Date Posted:
6/18 11:43am
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
- Date Edited: 6/18 11:48am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
artemis_daoc
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Flank (DW side positional 0.85 growth rate) has no-hit bonus.
Doublefrost (LA anytime) has low-to-hit.
I could go on. There is nothing unique about not having a bonus to hit or low-to-hit, it's not unique to H2H. But those growth rates add 30% or more style dmg compared to other classes similar to pre-LA nerf growth rates.
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Lemo
Posts: 2,790
Registered: Dec 01
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Date Posted:
6/18 11:59am
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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Before 1.62, Doublefrost was ~1.50. Aurora Borealis was ~1.80. Saying Hand-to-hand styles are similar to pre-nerf LA styles is exaggerating perhaps more than a little.
I don't really have any issue with Hand-to-hand to-hit in RvR. Wild Call and all subsequent unstyled multihits land on level 50 players just fine, and any misses are easily lost in the sheer bulk of attacks per unit time that a Savage does.
On mobs, though, it makes me weepy sometimes. I assume all multihits are treated as unstyled attacks, because they miss a painful amount on purples. And if I'm trying to peel or whatever, using Wild Call, it is perhaps less than reliable. But even in PvE, the bulk attacks per round usually lets me hit consistantly enough to prevent me from deleting this character.
Lemo
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artemis_daoc
Posts: 3,297
Registered: Mar 02
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Date Posted:
6/18 12:27pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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You are right Lemo, after checking old files, H2H isn't quite as high as what pre-nerf LA had. I forgot pre-nerf LA has 200% (or 2x) the growth rate of other style lines 
H2H is more along 130%-150%.
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MioXH
Posts: 200
Registered: Feb 04
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Date Posted:
6/18 1:19pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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Oh Jesus here we go again. Expect Wyrd inc any minute now..
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Beasts2
Posts: 233
Registered: Jun 04
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Date Posted:
6/18 1:22pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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Ratharius .... i have snakecharmers wep and sally tail....buffed with 311 str 383 dex 247 quick and i swear on everything i hit about 230 ish to 300ish main and off combined,.,,,,and that seems to be conssitant whether its a caster or not... but on mid lance.. we do have alot of high rr albs n hibs. ..maybe that comes into effect .. who knows .. and not whinning biatch lol just wondering what im doing different then the uber savages like yourself
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50 shaman Meidek Alert RR 3L3 ML 4 50 savage Beasts RR 3L2 ML 4 50 sm Zhi Uhk Modern bot from hell 6.3 bubs into 50 46 rm Oracles NF FotM 50 Skald Punitve Damage Retired And Justice For All -GM- Mid / Lance (spying on Mordred lol)
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GotharNW
Posts: 6,588
Registered: Feb 02
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Date Posted:
6/18 2:36pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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"Oh Jesus here we go again. Expect Wyrd inc any minute now.."
Actually, most of the players on internal who have had some experience with Savages (rr5 or higher) think the Growth Rates are a little high, but they are not claiming they should be lowered.
Perception is different than conception.
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Gaw *Broderskapet* || Guin*Raz 'Xi*
R8 Warrior, R7 Warden, R4 Shaman and a few other 50s
2 LGM AC/LGM Tailor
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ploppy.
Posts: 1,083
Registered: Jul 00
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Date Posted:
6/18 4:02pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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Not all classes have the same base damage so you can't directly compare the growth rates of one class to another. For instance warriors supposedly have the highest base damage in the game, higher than thier class counterparts, heros and Armsmen.
Does anyone know for sure if the base damage of savages is the same as zerks and bm/mercs? If they are the same then I stand corrected, but If they are indeed different then looking at the growthrates is completely pointless unless your comparing the savage styles exclusivly.
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Vilorix - 50 Healer ~~Knights of Strife~~ - Tristan
Vilorix - 50 Healer ~~Exitiabilis Intenio~~ - Mordred
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kalictalite2
Posts: 636
Registered: Oct 03
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Date Posted:
6/18 4:17pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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"buffed with 311 str 383 dex 247 quick "
Fully buffed I have 342 str and 393 dex...you overcapped?
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50 Savage-Creshxtreme-RR5L0{Retired due to NF}
50 Dark Sm-Diradia-RR2L9{Most played now cause NF sucks w/o range}
50 Thane-Runextreme-RR3L4 {gimp}
W00t NF made me useless! Hope hibs and albs are having a blast owning us.
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Lemo
Posts: 2,790
Registered: Dec 01
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Date Posted:
6/18 4:21pm
Subject: RE: Growth Rates
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Without getting too in depth in the calculations, it can be said that the Savage's lower WeapSkill and attacks per round is more than made up for by its higher growth rates, DPS buff, and haste buff.
So, yes, comparing growth rates in isolation of other factors is insufficient to draw a conclusion. However, knowing Hand-to-hand's growth rates is good for comparisons such as a Hth Savage versus a 2H Savage, since they are for the most part the same otherwise (not exactly, but whatever).
Lemo
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Ratharius the Briton Phoenix Knight Reaver 
Fire & Brimstone 
WTF TWF!!!! 
