|
Sabranic
(Midgard's Yoda)
Posts : 1459
|
So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side stun? |
12/17/05 11:23 PM |
The side stun was never supposed to be aviable to the hib stealthers, and this bug was noted in the grab bag shortly after 1.62 as being slated for removal... but it was never was... Why?
________________________________________________________________________
http://www.camelotherald.com/more/888.shtml
1.62
Blademaster Changes
- The Blademaster Triple Wield special ability has been updated. It is now on a 7 minute re-use timer (it was previously set to 30 minutes). It now will stack properly with other damage adds - it will always increase damage no matter what other buffs or damage adds are currently affecting the Blademaster. Triple Wield also now makes Blademasters immune to critical melee damage.
- The Ice Storm -> Tempest -> Supernova chain has been modified for Blademasters only (i.e. Rangers and Nightshades are not affected by this). The damage for each has been increased, and Ice Storm now has a short stun component.
____________________________________________________________
It's a pretty large advantage to anyone smart enough to circle strafe - especially with the enlarged side arcs in 1.69. It was never intended for nightshades and rangers - this was a fix to try and help blademasters be comperable to berzerkers as melee damage dealers - not give shades or rangers an easy 4 second (Edited to correct stun duration) stun from an enlarged side positional arc. Additionally, it has given melee rangers their own little "creeping death" which is in my opinion making them overperform v.s. assassins. Miss your perf? |
|
Sabranic
(Midgard's Yoda)
Posts : 1459
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side stun? |
12/17/05 11:26 PM |
Also note... that shadowblades did NOT get the left axe style changes that the berzerker did...
1.62
"- Berserker Left Axe Snowsquall, Icy Brilliance, and Aurora Borealis have had their damage slightly increased (based on the new damage, see previous note) for the Berserker (only, this change will not affect the Shadowblade). Additionally, Aurora Borealis now chains off of Icy Brilliance and has a cold-based DD proc."
|
|
Zorlock
(Registered)
Posts : 766
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side stun? |
12/18/05 12:15 AM |
Interesting. Anyone ever bug report this?
 I am a Scorched Earth Tank.
When I have a mission, it consumes me; I will not be satisfied until the job is done. I have a strong sense of duty, and a strong sense of direction. Changes in the tide don't phase me - I always know which way the wind blows, and I know how to compensate for it. I get on poorly with people like myself. What Video Game Character Are You?
|
|
|
Nightuss
()
Posts : 1201
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/18/05 1:54 AM |
Why hasnt Mythic fixed the animists baseline creeping wisps? They're meant to be a DD/resist decrease, but they only act as a DD. <--------------------------------------------------------------------------> |
|
SI51
(Registered)
Posts : 1784
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/18/05 12:00 PM |
| LOL, so many small problems. |
|
verneir
(Registered)
Posts : 659
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side stun? |
12/18/05 2:22 PM |
Wow, thanks for pointing that out! Both my nightshade and ranger have high enough celtic dual wield to use it {although my nightshade is basically retired}. I'll have to try it!
That's funny. The Shadowblade is actually working but the nightshade and ranger are not. I wonder if there is anything like this for Infiltrators? |
|
Nyck
(Cries in the corner)
Posts : 1672
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/18/05 8:23 PM |
| ^^^ is this sarcasm??? |
|
Rhino
(RunDMC)
Posts : 5149
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/18/05 10:39 PM |
It's a 4 second stun, what's the big deal?
I'm kind of curious why this was just brought up though. What happened to make you dig up a 20 version old patch note? The downside of being better than everyone else is that people tend to assume you're pretentious. |
|
Kratatch
(< 30 IQ)
Posts : 6814
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/18/05 11:29 PM |
^4s more than what SB/Hunter got.
 I am a Space-invader.
I will happily recruit the help of friends to aid me in getting what I want. I have no tolerance for people getting in my way, and I am completely relentless until any threats or opposition are removed. I try to be down-to-earth, but something always seems to get in the way. What Video Game Character Are You?
|
|
|
Sabranic
(Midgard's Yoda)
Posts : 1459
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/19/05 12:29 AM |
| Just like my work on trying to balance warlocks and other classes, I hunt down bugs and bring them to people's attention. This is a game bug and as such should be addressed - it's also a game bug that has a pretty big impact on rvr. It's also giving what is essentially a perf chain to rangers. |
|
DerHuhnTeufel
(Registered)
Posts : 4474
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/19/05 1:41 AM |
| Great, a 4s stun which then ruins the 5s evade stun. It's also short enough you don't have a chance of killing your intended target. |
|
Sabranic
(Midgard's Yoda)
Posts : 1459
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/19/05 3:55 AM |
Actually the stun creates a very very short immunity timer, and it's power is in opening up a very high growth rate chain - growth rates that were never intended for rangers it even explicity states as such in the patch notes. 4 Seconds from the stun is 3 high damage attacks with dual wielding weapons - this is a very large ammount of time to be incapisitated and in many ways has allowed rangers to exceed assassins in as much as they have their onw "mini PA chain" from the side. That was clearly not the intention of the developers when they created these styles - they were not intended for stealthers, who use it in combination with stealth to ammount to an any time stun - which is outside a defender's arc of defense. This is not an evade reactionay, second in a chain, a shield style, or a positional comming from a visible target. It was not supposed to be an ability that these classes have access to - by mythic's own documentation - that in and of itself is enough to merit it's removal.
The power of this style is shown primarily when facing multiple opponents where it allows a ranger to virtually emulate the stun and dps component of an assassin - while still having a very high damage ranged attack. It becomes dicey when it stacks off things like the ranger *rr5, (which any ranger with their own purge knows is basically a free unpurgable insta stun with a damage component). Start stacking other things like zephyer, and you are engeineering a situation where a ranger can incapasitate a foe for the entire time it takes to kill them, despite intended balances such as purge.
It is a culmuative effect that is having a negative impact on game balance - that and the fact that this is a game bug that is helping other magnify other disparities - and it should be corrected.
Those of you trying to dismiss this as a small issues are forgetting that it is in fact small issues that are killing DAoC... not any one huge problem... but a barrage of small bugs, oversights, and disparities - just like what we have here. The problems with the gmae need to be addressed, one bug at a time.
This is a bug, it impacts game balance in a negative and unintended way, and should be corrected. |
|
Hiwayman
(DAoC Veteran)
Posts : 3544
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/19/05 7:17 AM |
Frankly, those that try to dismiss this as some kind of diminutive item that has little bearing simply can't be playing a class that is affected by the availability of this.
Theres a reason that the guy above that sounds thankful to have learned of this seems sarcastic to Nyck. It's so incredibly common that rangers are aware of the style that seeing one unaware of it seems inconcievable. Virtually every ranger and most nightshades you meet will try to land this style--obviously significant or they wouldn't do so. Virtually all of them with any real skill will succeed due to how easy it is to land a side style nowadays.
As Sabranic points out, with their RR5 and Zephyr this ability adds a huge amount of control to the situation for them. As a duo or greater it multiplies the effect.
I see it on the classic servers and it imbalances fights even without zephyr. Frankly, it's such an easy style to land that most rangers will try to circle strafe around with it as their secondary style. Duoes use it to even greater effect, though seeing a number that isn't one or eight for rangers on Gareth is rare for whatever reason.
I didn't realize they weren't supposed to have it, and frankly rangers and nightshades(mostly and especially rangers) that use it well mop up to a virtually imbalancing degree. Add this to the list of items that Hibernians stealthers have in their favor. _______________________________________________ Thanks |
|
Nialith
(Registered)
Posts : 190
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/19/05 9:10 AM |
People who use spiral will get this stun for free and even with /face it still work.
4 sec stun + dual wield+high growth dps chain can make lot of dmg. |
|
Hranulf
(Voice of Reason)
Posts : 1471
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/19/05 1:01 PM |
If players reported every bug and Mythic fixed every bug, we all would have a lot clearer idea of what major changes are needed to further improve the game.
All the little (and not-so-little) bugs make it hard to know where the game really stands, so moving forward is much more difficult. |
|
Emeralda
(Registered)
Posts : 1247
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/19/05 5:01 PM |
I guess my Ranger sucks then. I only have 10 in CD. Most of my points are in Bow and Pathfinding. Playing Classic I thought it best to have good buffs. Playing Classic Servers and Loving it. Gareth Hibs, Lamorak Mids, Ector Albs LGM Everything except Fletching UnRetired 50's on Nimue, Guin and Percival |
|
Sabranic
(Midgard's Yoda)
Posts : 1459
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/19/05 9:19 PM |
Your ranger does not suck, it sounds as if you specced more along the lines of what was intended. The ranger is supposed to be an archer with reasonable melee. They are not supposed to be a studded leather wearing assassin with access to physical defense and ignore pain. When you have near crit strike growth rates and a stun component, launchable from stealth, what you have done is make yourself a studded leather wearing celt nightshade.
Assassins are balanced for their super high growth rate styles and stun chains/positionals with what is basically the weakest armor in DAoC (it's actually lower in protective qualties than caster cloth after ToA), and very restricted RA/ML choices. Archers however were not, as they have heavier armor, a high alpha strike ranged attack, access to physical defense, forceful zephyer, phase shift, ignore pain, an insta speed spell to help escape (much like vanish is used), and a RR 5 that, though an oversight that allows it's negative effects to be purged, to become an unpurgable stun while you continue hackign away at your target with high growth rate styles. You are able to change the ranger into an assassin, with perks the nightshade lacks (RA's, Armor, Ml's), while stil enjoying most of their strengths (Multiple stuns, High DPS styles, Stealth, Escape skills).
My problem is mostly with rangers having this - the CD side stun is largely redundant on a nightshade - but it is making rangers overperform in melee, and this was never intended. It is a game bug.
|
|
Gaggleflux
(Registered)
Posts : 56
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/19/05 10:13 PM |
| I agree this needs to be fixed. Ive been saying it for a long time. I am glad someone with a big enough mouth finally got their ass stomped in an RvR zone by a ranger using this style, so now maybe Mythic will finally fix this. |
|
Sabranic
(Midgard's Yoda)
Posts : 1459
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/19/05 10:57 PM |
| Actually I had it pointed out to me by a friend named zygzyg who plays a RR 7 shadowblade and RR 5 inf. |
|
ahhhwhereditgo
(Registered)
Posts : 747
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/19/05 11:53 PM |
That was a test note wasnt it? Isnt that the point of test notes and the test server, to test. They announce everything they are going to try new, not everything will make it live. Theres a good chance its no bug at all and they simply chose not to remove it. Through pain comes discipline.. |
|
Nightfire
(Registered)
Posts : 86
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/20/05 1:36 AM |
You can say I'm biased cause I play a ranger, but I don't believe that something as little as 1 class having access to a positional stun style is having such a negative impact on the game. The real problem I see is people abusing the straf system to land side styles in fights they shouldn't be able to. If the code was simply changed to prevent this from happening I don't feel this would be overpowered at all. Even a ranger with 12 bow spec should open up a fight with his bow over a 4 second stun style. After all we still have diamondback in reserve, which is longer, and reasonably easy to land.
On a side note, if you really think there's a problem with rangers turning themselves into melee stealthers, maybe someone should take the time to look at fixes for archery, it really is vastly underpowered in most situations, in my opinion as a ranger. I'd love to be a real archer, but its just not possible with the current state of DAoC. |
|
Sabranic
(Midgard's Yoda)
Posts : 1459
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/20/05 4:45 AM |
The fact that infs and shadowblades did not recieve the merc/zerker only upgrades to LA/DW, plus the design intent and direct quotes from the developers in the patch cycle reveals as being a clear bug. Like all bugs - and this one does very much have an impact on game balance - the fact that you are a melee ranger who thinks its a superior alternative to your bow proves that you DO in fact think that is impacts game balance - otherwise you'd not be a melee ranger at all. You won't say that in defense of your position, but you default that entire comment instantly by your defense of it.
"You can say I'm biased cause I play a ranger, but I don't believe that something as little as 1 class having access to a positional stun style is having such a negative impact on the game."
It's a game bug, and it is a rather impressive advantage not somethign to be downplayed at all - the archers were not intended to be assassins in studded armor, with physical defense, ignore pain, phase shift, and zepher - complete with a good selecion of excape skills/ra's, and their own perf chain complete with stun component and very very high growth rate styles.
The side arc comments are a strawman argument that leads nowhere - it is by the nature DAoC's game mechanics something that really is not feasable to fix - although I agree that this issue that, in an ideal world should be magically fixed - given the nature of the internet latency. Even fast connections have as much as a .8 second delay time before all parties are up to date on positions and facing. This is alot of time with the speed in which people die, or move. That mechanic makes it very easy to circle strafe people, and there is no way to reliably test wheather a side stun is the result of strafing or a legitimate side attack. But, simply, this entire comment was designed to bog the discussion down in irrelevant issues to the topic at hand - you might as well have pointed to the fact that warlocks are still grossly overpowered and stated that fixing them will fix this bug. A silly comparession, but equally relevant to this discussion - which is to say not at all. The fact that the game has other issues, does not mitigate the necessity to repair bugs. Wheather it's the fact that people can circle strafe to do cheezy things with styles, or the fact that warlocks chamber dump people stupid fast, has no bearing of fixing a well documented game flaw/bug.
There is no "pre-requisite" for fixing bugs. The fact that bows are not doing the damage you think they should - the 1100 hits I am taking quite frequently as a chain wearer speak otherwise however - is not a concern of mine to be brutally honest. Fixing a game bug is - as I said... DAoC suffers from a host of smaller issues - like this one - that need to be corrected. If you think your ranger is not viable without exploting a game bug, then I would suggest you contat your team lead over the issue.
When mythic concieved archers, they saw the bow as the primary means of dealing damage, they did not intend, (as proven by their own desing notes on the issue), for the archers to end up being assasins with better ra's, and ranged damage.
When you throw a stun component, super high growth rate style chain at an archer, who arguably has a superior melee combat RA set - such as ip, and physical defense - with escape skills/ra's/spells, stealth, superior armor, better racial choices for melee classes (celts or shar for example), and a strong ranged attack even when melee specced, you are opening up the option to create "assassin 2.0" without balancing factors that were placed on assassins. The high damage of these blademaster only intended styles - not just the stun - begin to tread heavily into the assassin's tarritory - and the nightshade RA selection, ML sets, and Armor were deliberatly curtailed to balance out their DPS. No such scales were instituted for archers, becasue they were not supposed to have access to this sort of melee power - as evidenced by the patch notes, and the desing descriptions of the various classes that were introduced, and much touted in that particular patch cycle.
For rangers to be left with these skills would probably require a rebalancing of their armor, RR5, RA selection, an perhaps even ML selections - a hurculean task to say the least - about up there with trying to correct network latency to a degree that the /face command can not be circumvented with strafe in terms of likelyhood - it's far easier, and appropriate, to simply fix the simple bug that was unintentionally introduced in 1.62, and remove the stun component, and supe rhigh growthrates of this style chain that was accitendally introduced. |
|
Hiwayman
(DAoC Veteran)
Posts : 3544
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/20/05 7:44 AM |
but I don't believe that something as little as 1 class having access to a positional stun style is having such a negative impact on the game.
In a small way that's true, but in a bigger way thats the problem this game faces on a grand scale. There are many abilities in the game that aren't intended to be either had by, or used in the way, that they are. While no single one of these gems is necessarily game breaking, when put together they make for a very difficult situation and a broken game.
In this example, a class has an ability it isn't supposed to. Even without this ability, the Ranger is still going to be the most powerful class in its' archetype due to other items that many believe are questionable(melee triad favoring dual wield, the slow bow dynamic making the archer with the slowest bow the most powerful by default). So the most powerful class in an archetype gets an unintended ability that makes it even more powerful yet. _______________________________________________ Thanks |
|
Rhino
(RunDMC)
Posts : 5149
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side st |
12/20/05 8:41 AM |
My ranger has 25 CD, so I haven't seen the alleged high growth rates for the two subsequent styles, but since Ice Storm is only a 4 second stun and the style itself doesn't hit particularly hard, I don't see what the big deal is with that.
If the two follow-up styles are in fact hitting like a truck, then they should probably be changed. I know Tempest does hit pretty hard on my blademaster. The downside of being better than everyone else is that people tend to assume you're pretentious. |
|
Frostman
(Blue Name Envy)
Posts : 1131
|
RE: So... Mythic - why have you not fixed the bug with ranger/shade side stun? |
12/20/05 10:39 AM |
Is it the 4 second side stun that is the issue?
Or is it the high growth rate followup styles that you all see as the problem (when combined with the access to certain RAs)? " We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!" Led Zeppelin, Immigrant Song |
