Effects of Empathy - The Magic Numbers

Tombo

*** Originally posts on the VN Hib/Nat boards, on 03/05/03 ***

Ok I did some testing....

Background:

I am 125 base empathy and with that, I can cast apothesis 8 times and 17 red buffs.

If I take empathy past the cap, I can cast Apothesis 10 times and cast 20 red buffs. (my cap is 200. Max possible cap in the game is 208: 70 for firb +18 at creation, excluding Augmented Acuity which could bring it to 238 )

Goal & Methodology:

My goal was to find the magic number that would allow 20 red buffs, more specifically 5 sets of 4.

All buff tests started with one of each buff on a target and on the last started any assortment of the 4 red buffs, using each only once.

All Apothesis tests were out of combat and since I have no power regenerating RAs (serenity), this was pure natural regeneration. All spells were cast nonstop, continuously, by holding down the hotkey for Apothesis.

All tests were from 125 empathy to 200 empathy only, as they are my base and my cap without RAs

Results:

Well that magic number is 164 empathy. At 163, I couldn't cast the 20 red buffs (only 19), but at 164 I was able to cast a full 20 red buffs.

I also tested Apothesis with 164 empathy and I was able to cast it 9 times.

Conclusion:

Well wasting imbue points for +empathy is just about worthless for a warden and anything over 164 empathy is worthless and anything over 179 is absolutely a waste.

With a base of 125 you need to add 39 empathy to gain 3 more red buffs and 1 additional heal. Is that really worth a minimum of 2 gem slots which could be used for regrowth or other stats? Maybe! Hence why this is practically useless.

Its even more useless when you consider you can add a +28 emp gem to a shortbow which you will have with you at all times. Adding +28 to 125 raises my empathy to 153 and at 153 I can cast 4 sets of 4 and any 3 red buffs. Oh! and I can cast apothesis 9 times.

Is it worth 2 gem slots and imbue points for 1 additional buff? Hardly.

Now, past 164, empathy has a dimishing return. The only benefit after 164 is grabbing one more base heal at 179 empathy.

After 179 Empathy, it is completely a waste, unless you get over the 200 cap at which point you may get one more base heal.

Is that worth atleast one more gem slot, lots of imbue points and some hard earned RAs for just 1 more baseline heal?

That is up to you.

Summary:

125 Empathy = 8 Apothesis, 16+1 red buffs

153 Empathy = 9 Apothesis, 19 red buffs

164-178* Empathy = 9 Apothesis, 20 red buffs

178/179*-200 Empathy = 10 Apothesis, 20 red buffs.

* Due to the natural regeneration of power in the standing out of combat position, not even a split second later you can cast a 10th Apothesis. In combat it would be a firm 9 at 178, but in any case 179 is a definite 10 casts.

-----------------------------

I was told today, if I recall correctly, that each point in empathy gives you 0.5 in power.

That "should" answer your question, if true. If +26 is the power cap, then +52 emp is equal to +26 so you could see the effect +26 power would have on casting heals.

+28 empathy (alone) is 19 imbue points. This gives you the equivalent of 14 power.

+11 Power (alone) is 20 imbue points, +13 power (alone) is 24 imbue points & +15 power (alone) is 28 imbue points.

28 imbue points is the points for a 99% lvl 51 piece.

If you went +28 emp and +13 power, its a 5 point overcharge on a 99, giving you +27 power total or the equivalent of +54 emp from one item.

If you went +28 emp and +15 power, its a 5 point overcharge on a MP, giving you +29 power or the equivalent of +58 emp.

Don't forget power doesn't affect conc, only emp does, so while this will give you the power equiv of +58 emp, it will not give you the conc equiv of +58 emp.

Tombo Ahi <Dorlach Sgath>: Master Forester/Thunderer (50 Warden/RR7)

Baaish: 50 Valewalkwer, Inamnagh: 50 Druid - Guinevere

Tomboahi: 50 Shadowblade - Percival

_________________
Tombo Ahi (Dorlach Sgath): RR8L5/CL10/ML10 Battlemaster Firbolg Warden - Guinevere
Legendary Armorsmith, Tailor, Weaponsmith, Fletcher, Spellcrafter, Alchemist

"Sexual favors, Tombo. Just offer yourself on a plate to Sanya and we get it back" - Lemiwinks

Guest · **My Warden:**

Hi Tombo,

I was curious about the number of times you can cast apothesis. I tried it myself and these are the numbers I came up with. The way I did things was to cast the spells on myself (with already full health and out of combat) constantly until oom. The first round was with gear, the second "naked" without wearing anything.

My numbers:

Full gear:

Minor Apoth. too many, stopped counting

Apothesis 26 times

Greater Apothesis: 18 times

No gear:

Apothesis 19 times

Gr. Apothesis: 11x

Now here are my stats:

I play in Germany currently with version 1.63.

Skills full gear:

(please don't laugh it's the epic

)

Regrow 42 + 5

Dex: 120

Emp: 178

Skills no gear:

Regrow 42

Dex: 77

Emp: 117

RA's ( RR 2L8 )

Serenity 2

Aug. Acuity 2

Aug. Dex 2

Wild Healing

MCL 1

MoB 1

MoP 1

Now I am very confused about these numbers. Before this test I could relate to your numbers because in combat I run out of mana fairly quickly. With bubble not running an mana reg/pom I should be casting minor apo's without mana loss according to these numbers, however I can not (pet pull has proven this again and again). Now these numbers here show a completly different picture. Is that because of my serenity?

Before I felt that it wasn't a big improvement (when my group gets hit often mana still drowns) but I have not the opportunity to respecc/test.

So could you see where the difference between our numbers come from?

Or is it because of the high regrowth or because I was at full health? But that wouldn't make much sense...

A little confused......

Jadow

Edited by: GermanWarden at: 1/30/04 2:47 am

Tombo · Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:17 am Post subject: Re: whats wrong with my numbers?

Well the first thing I would have to point out is that test above is about a year old. Game mechanics could have changed since I last did it. Next thing to point out is you are on the European servers and they may have mechanics altered differently than the american servers. (I wouldn't know). Lastly, another difference is you have Serenity II, I had no serenity. You and I were not in combat so your serenity would have a much greater impact than no serenity.

Could the difference in our regrowtn be a factor? It may, though I highly doubt it nor can I see how it would as spec only affects output and not power cost.

Best I could do would be to see if I have the gear used in that original test and redo it. See if my numbers are still the same.

Hey, maybe there is a haste power bug too

Tombo Ahi <Dorlach Sgath>: Master Forester/Gilded Spear (50 Warden/RR8)

Baaish: 50 Valewalkwer, Inamnagh: 50 Druid - Guinevere

Tomboahi: 50 Shadowblade - Percival

Edited by: TomboAhi at: 1/30/04 9:20 am

_________________
Tombo Ahi (Dorlach Sgath): RR8L5/CL10/ML10 Battlemaster Firbolg Warden - Guinevere
Legendary Armorsmith, Tailor, Weaponsmith, Fletcher, Spellcrafter, Alchemist

"Sexual favors, Tombo. Just offer yourself on a plate to Sanya and we get it back" - Lemiwinks

Guest · **My Warden:**

Hm,

I think you can rule out the haste bug since I wasn't hasted.

I also don't think the versions/servers make a huge difference which would basically leave it to serenity.

Quote:
You and I were not in combat so your serenity would have a much greater impact than no serenity.

So I only get a lessened benefit of serenity because (as I understand it) I/my group is in combat.

That would leave me wondering if (for pet pull for example) I could leave the group and get the full benefit of serenity? I don't quite buy it but I will test it with my guildies once I'm home.

But of course it would be nice if you could redo the test with / without serenity and maybe in and out of fight (which would sum up to 4 tests :whistle

)

But I also am quite happy with my numbers

Jadow

Tombo · Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:07 am Post subject: Re: whats wrong with my numbers?

Quote:
I think you can rule out the haste bug since I wasn't hasted.

I was being sarcastic when I said that. Making fun of the end/haste bug.

As for the rest serenity could be playing a key factor especially since these tests are OOC. The effects of serenity are even more so when not in combat. I will see if I have the items I used last time, because I would want the same items to do the same test.

Tombo Ahi <Dorlach Sgath>: Master Forester/Gilded Spear (50 Warden/RR8)

Baaish: 50 Valewalkwer, Inamnagh: 50 Druid - Guinevere

Tomboahi: 50 Shadowblade - Percival

_________________
Tombo Ahi (Dorlach Sgath): RR8L5/CL10/ML10 Battlemaster Firbolg Warden - Guinevere
Legendary Armorsmith, Tailor, Weaponsmith, Fletcher, Spellcrafter, Alchemist

"Sexual favors, Tombo. Just offer yourself on a plate to Sanya and we get it back" - Lemiwinks

Guest · **My Warden:**

Ok it did some further testing.

At first I thought it had something to do with being in an out of combat and the manareg.

So I went out with an ench friend and I healed his pet once in group with him and once out of group while he was pulling mobs with it. I always used the greater apothesis chain-casted until oom. I started once the pet dropped below 50% health. In both times I was able to cast 8 heals. The question I was trying to solve is when I am counted as being in or out of combat and therefore getting better manareg effects (from serenity).

So this tells me either being in or out of a group doesn't affect the manareg or I am counted in both situations as in combat.

But this left me still confused about my prev. test where I could cast 18 gr. Apo's on myself. So I casted the heals on the pet while it was at full health standing around. And I got the same results with 18 casts of greater heals as before on myself.

This leads me to the conclusion that the mana cost of heals depends somehow on the amount of hitpoints healed.

(when the pet was at 50% health 2 heals cost me ~2.5 bubs of the mana bar, when it was at full health it cost only ~1.5)

This would explain my unusually high numbers from the first test. I just thought the manacost of a heal was constant no matter what. But maybe there's an easy answer for it?

Jadow

Tombo · Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 8:31 am Post subject: Re: whats wrong with my numbers?

Quote:
So this tells me either being in or out of a group doesn't affect the manareg or I am counted in both situations as in combat.

Regardless of whether or not you are grouped. If you heal anything in combat, you are counted as being in combat.

Quote:
This leads me to the conclusion that the mana cost of heals depends somehow on the amount of hitpoints healed.

(when the pet was at 50% health 2 heals cost me ~2.5 bubs of the mana bar, when it was at full health it cost only ~1.5)

This seems to be a recent development. After you mentioned your results above, I was noticing something similar with regard to styling and end cost. In particular battlemaster styles.

If I hit Essence Flames but miss, it costs less end than if I hit Essence Flamesa and it hits.

Quote:
This would explain my unusually high numbers from the first test. I just thought the manacost of a heal was constant no matter what. But maybe there's an easy answer for it?

As far as I know that is how it used to be.

Tombo Ahi <Dorlach Sgath>: Master Forester/Gilded Spear (50 Warden/RR8)

Baaish: 50 Valewalkwer, Inamnagh: 50 Druid - Guinevere

Tomboahi: 50 Shadowblade - Percival

_________________
Tombo Ahi (Dorlach Sgath): RR8L5/CL10/ML10 Battlemaster Firbolg Warden - Guinevere
Legendary Armorsmith, Tailor, Weaponsmith, Fletcher, Spellcrafter, Alchemist

"Sexual favors, Tombo. Just offer yourself on a plate to Sanya and we get it back" - Lemiwinks

Nirgal · Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: whats wrong with my numbers?

Quote:
This leads me to the conclusion that the mana cost of heals depends somehow on the amount of hitpoints healed.

This was actually in the patch notes a while back. Heals cast on targets at full health are resisted and pay half power cost.

Nirgal <The Darkside>, Silver Hand Warden of Guinevere

Guest · **My Warden:**

Ha,

ok so my two questions are answered, thank you.

I am counted as being in combat and half mana cost for 0 hp healed.

Jadow

Guest · **My Warden:**

So your suggestion is to not worry about going over 164 empathy? And to perhaps not worry too much about +Power on SC? I am starting to work out my SC template and have no real idea of what I should max as of yet.

Tohandry Celt Preserver

<Coterie>

Percival

"Feel the power of Nature and her defenders!"

Guest · **My Warden:**

+power is by far the worst thing to put on your SC template. With a max of +26, you might be able to get off one extra Minor Apotheosis (17 power) or one Group Apotheosis (25 power).

It's an embarrassingly low return on investment, and Mackey noted in a TL response a loooong time ago that Mythic is aware of how terrible it is. They were supposed to be looking into adjusting it, but it must have fallen back under the radar; I haven't heard anything about it in a long time.

Cap:

Regrowth (if you heal at all)

Parry

Weapon Spec (if you swing a weapon at all)

Resists

Con

Dex

Str

Hits

Qui

Get emp to 164, higher if you can, and skip power. I'm fuzzy on the details and no longer have the link, but iirc, someone did testing a long time ago and discovered that you get more power from increased emp for fewer SC points. Same for con vs hits, but con varied by race and/or class.

Tombo

yes getting Empathy to 164 is the best bang for the buck. If you really want an extra heal, take it to 179. Forget power, it eats up way too many imbue points for what its worth.

Tombo Ahi <Dorlach Sgath>: ML10/RR8 Master Forester

Baaish: 50 Valewalkwer, Inamnagh: 50 Druid, Saigdeior: 50 Ranger

Tomboahi: 50 Shadowblade - Percival

_________________
Tombo Ahi (Dorlach Sgath): RR8L5/CL10/ML10 Battlemaster Firbolg Warden - Guinevere
Legendary Armorsmith, Tailor, Weaponsmith, Fletcher, Spellcrafter, Alchemist

"Sexual favors, Tombo. Just offer yourself on a plate to Sanya and we get it back" - Lemiwinks